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re: Earth - schematic of historical temperature data
Posted on 10/27/20 at 1:38 pm to LegendInMyMind
Posted on 10/27/20 at 1:38 pm to LegendInMyMind
quote:With a LOT of data. And even then, the actual average sea level cannot be known to mm precision. There are far too many variables that change by the second. However, while you cannot know the precise level at a point in time, you can determine a trend (or rate of change) with a lot of averaging and other methods.
Serious question:
How are sea levels accurately measured across large areas to a point of precision that operates in millimeters?
Imagine trying to determine the water level in a hot tub while it's running. Impossible to know to the mm, right? Probably the best you can do is put a few stilling wells in there to calm most of the turbulence, and then eyeball the level best you can at a few points and average. Then do it again and again, every hour or whatever, and keep records. After a while you can plot your data on a chart and determine not only whether the water level is rising, falling, or staying the same, but you can also pretty accurately determine the rate of change.
And even if your spot measurements are only accurate to the cm, you will be able to determine the rate of change quite accurately, because all of the noise and error is averaged out over a length of time. For example, let's say you measure a level of 10cm +/- 1cm. Could be 9, could be 11, or anything in between. You measure every day, but each time your precision is +/- 1cm. After a few months you start measuring 11cm every now and then. Mostly still 10, but sometimes 11. A few months later you measure mostly 11, and only rarely 10. A few months later you start getting 12cm sometimes. Maybe after a year you are measuring 12cm most days. It still fluctuates, and still only precise to +/- 1cm, but you are still getting mostly 12cm. But now you have a year of data, so you can filter out most of the noise and calculate a rate of change. Maybe you average all the daily measurements from the first and last months, and you get 9.8cm and 12.2cm, which is 24mm/year, or 2mm/month, or 240mm/decade, etc.
So you can take an average of many measurements to increase the accuracy, and then slice it up over a span of time to effectively divide the unit of measurement to be more precise. It doesn't matter that I can't take a single measurement to within 1 cm, I can still be reasonably certain that the daily rate of change is 0.066mm given enough measurements.
There is obviously a lot more to it, and a lot of math and statistics involved that I have almost zero clue about, but I hope this example can help explain why even though we can't measure the global average sea level all that accurately, we can still be pretty certain that it is actually rising by about 3mm per year. It sounds absurd, because it's hard enough to measure that amount of change in a 5 gallon bucket, much less all the oceans of the world. But it is absolutely possible because we aren't actually measuring sea level that precisely. We are measuring rates of change.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 1:40 pm to The Mick
Where's the ability to create fear in that diagram?
Posted on 10/27/20 at 2:11 pm to bad93ex
quote:
Surely a newly created tax will flatten the curve
EIGHT YEARS TO FLATTEN THE CURVE!!!
Posted on 10/27/20 at 2:15 pm to GetCocky11
quote:
I'm not sure why it is so controversial to say that cutting down rainforests, dumping garbage in the oceans, and burning large amounts of fossil fuels is bad for the environment and is leading to negative consequences for our race.
Because emotional idiots (Democrats) like you conflate things like “climate change” and localized environments into one monolithic issue when they aren’t meant to be so.
They do the same thing in other areas too - combining health, healthcare, and health insurance as one entity.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 2:41 pm to The Mick
quote:
4 B.C. Birth of Christ
Posted on 10/27/20 at 2:44 pm to Korkstand
quote:
and thus far there is a strong correlation between CO2, temps, and sea level.
Wrong.
And this is the big problem climate alarmists are facing, the fact that there is no correlation between CO2 and temperature. Further problematic is the fact that ice core samples show periods of warmth and low CO2 and periods of cold with high CO2. Nobody really likes to talk about that though.
We are entering what’s known as a “Maunder Minimum” which is a period of relatively low sunspot activity. Because of this, the next couple decades are gonna be cold. For THIS phenomena there actually is a correlation.
I find it troublesome how many blind followers there seem to be these days. I’m not sure who is right or wrong in this debate, but I do know this: We have about 100 years of what would be considered accurate written climate data, on a 5 BILLION year old planet. You show me a scientist that considers this an accurate sample size to base a hypothesis on, and I will show you a fraud.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 3:55 pm to LSURN98
quote:Nah.
Wrong.
quote:
And this is the big problem climate alarmists are facing, the fact that there is no correlation between CO2 and temperature.
quote:It is talked about ad nauseam. CO2 is but one of numerous variables that affect climate.
Further problematic is the fact that ice core samples show periods of warmth and low CO2 and periods of cold with high CO2. Nobody really likes to talk about that though.
quote:Solar minimums, Milankovitch cycles, etc. There are numerous cycles and factors that affect climate. Do you think you are privy to some information that climatologists around the world are not?
We are entering what’s known as a “Maunder Minimum” which is a period of relatively low sunspot activity.
quote:What will you say if temps remain flat rather than drop during this period?
Because of this, the next couple decades are gonna be cold. For THIS phenomena there actually is a correlation.
quote:I think the same the other way.
I find it troublesome how many blind followers there seem to be these days.
quote:
I’m not sure who is right or wrong in this debate
quote:A "fraud"?
but I do know this: We have about 100 years of what would be considered accurate written climate data, on a 5 BILLION year old planet. You show me a scientist that considers this an accurate sample size to base a hypothesis on, and I will show you a fraud.
In your estimation, how many years of instrumental data do we need before we can draw any conclusions relating to climate? And is any conclusion drawn from proxy data invalid, in your opinion? Is that fraud? Also, why does the age of the planet matter? For that matter, why do you trust that we have accurately aged the planet?
Posted on 10/27/20 at 8:52 pm to Korkstand
quote:
CO2 is but one of numerous variables that affect climate.
And yet, CO2 is the boogeyman that is what tax dollars are needed for to reduce. Surely you know that there was full glaciation during the Ordovician when atmospheric CO2 was 8X what it is today don’t you? If so you would also see that when there is a relationship between atmospheric CO2 and temperature, it is temperature which drives CO2 levels, not the other way around.
quote:
Solar minimums, Milankovitch cycles, etc. There are numerous cycles and factors that affect climate. Do you think you are privy to some information that climatologists around the world are not?
Nope, but how many alarmists are out there predicting a cooling cycle? I will hang up and wait.
quote:
What will you say if temps remain flat rather than drop during this period?
What will you say if they do indeed drop? See how this works?
quote:
A "fraud"?
Yes. A complete and total fraud. Likely supporting their 2 trillion USD a year habit which is what we spend on this garbage.
quote:
In your estimation, how many years of instrumental data do we need before we can draw any conclusions relating to climate?
Not sure, but I would hope it would be more than 0.00000002% of earths history, wouldn’t you? Especially when many of these “scientists” speak in such absolutes.
quote:
And is any conclusion drawn from proxy data invalid, in your opinion?
Could be, then again that depends on if one in fact trusts isotopic measurements, many of which do in fact support many of my arguments (see my mention of the Ordovician above). I guess the real question is do you?
quote:
Also, why does the age of the planet matter?
You serious Clark? It matters because you are taking a myopic and statistically insignificant data set in minutia of time in regards to earths history and trying to draw an absolute correlation. It’s idiotic.
quote:
For that matter, why do you trust that we have accurately aged the planet?
I love real science. And radiometric dating is very accurate (obviously speaking in geological terms).
Posted on 10/27/20 at 9:51 pm to LSURN98
quote:
Not sure, but I would hope it would be more than 0.00000002% of earths history, wouldn’t you? Especially when many of these “scientists” speak in such absolutes.
I understand the argument that climate talk can look silly when viewed under the lens of geological timeframes. I do. The Earth is old as shite and has gone through a lot of huge temperature swings.
That said, it makes sense to look at this on the scale of human history, and especially the history of civilization. It seems like we ought to be thinking in terms of “what are the survivable limits, and how do we stay within those bounds?” rather than “is this 100% caused by SUV’s and ExxonMobil?”
This is where the international community really needs to come together - because one pissed off country with a large coastal population could inadvertently throw the entire planet into an ice age if they start unilaterally pumping sulfates into the atmosphere.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 10:08 pm to LSURN98
are there any other chem engineers on this board
baseline, x/y axis, measurement, relationship co2/temperature are mentioned profusely through this thread.
back in the 60's we were taught that material and energy rate equations were based on absolute temperatures. that is degrees kelvin rather than degrees centigrade. 273 k is equal to 0 degrees centigrade. In 20 years of watching global warming conjecture I may have seen a graph with degrees kelvin, but only one.
This is important as it impacts the degree of 'accuracy' in the measuments, calculations, analytics by 3 significant digits. If you shaded in the degree of accuracy on the attached schematic the entire thing would be shaded.
I could pull out my old k&e slide rule and be just as accurate as the current computation, if measured by equal and appropriate rounding requirements and current statistics.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 10:39 pm to LSURN98
quote:Again, I have not called for any tax dollars to be spent or regulations to be enacted. But yes, CO2 gets all the attention because that's the gas we're putting in the atmosphere in massive quantities.
And yet, CO2 is the boogeyman that is what tax dollars are needed for to reduce.
quote:LINK
Surely you know that there was full glaciation during the Ordovician when atmospheric CO2 was 8X what it is today don’t you?
quote:Positive feedback.
If so you would also see that when there is a relationship between atmospheric CO2 and temperature, it is temperature which drives CO2 levels, not the other way around.
quote:No, the total age of the planet has almost no bearing on this whatsoever. Why should it matter what happened a billion years ago given how drastically different everything was? Back to your Ordovician period example, half a Billion years ago, solar output was about 4% lower than today. That is DRASTIC.
Not sure, but I would hope it would be more than 0.00000002% of earths history, wouldn’t you?
quote:We are concerned with what will happen during the next 100 years, not the next 100 million. How does the age of the earth change whatever conclusion we might draw based on the data we do have? You aren't making any sense.
You serious Clark? It matters because you are taking a myopic and statistically insignificant data set in minutia of time in regards to earths history and trying to draw an absolute correlation. It’s idiotic.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 11:05 pm to BugAC
quote:
Science (there's that word again) proves that warmer temperatures means more plant life.
More CO2 means more plant life, too.
Posted on 10/27/20 at 11:58 pm to TejasHorn
quote:
TejasHorn
frick the downvotes, that was one of the best posts on human history I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing it.
Posted on 10/28/20 at 12:52 am to Korkstand
quote:
No, the total age of the planet has almost no bearing on this whatsoever. Why should it matter what happened a billion years ago given how drastically different everything was?
If you really think this is irrelevant then I see no point in continuing this conversation.
quote:
How does the age of the earth change whatever conclusion we might draw based on the data we do have? You aren't making any sense.
Again, see above. It literally changes everything. The entire point is their are millions of variables that go into making up our climate. And yet, you have gone all in on CO2 being the one evil. If you can’t see the whole picture, you are too far gone in your bias to continue any further.
Posted on 10/28/20 at 1:23 am to LSURN98
quote:Likewise if you think it is relevant.
If you really think this is irrelevant then I see no point in continuing this conversation.
quote:And you bring up a period of high CO2 levels during an ice age as if it disproves the impact, but neglect to mention that the sun's output was DRASTICALLY lower at the time (half a Billion years ago). Absolute nonsense that you're trying to push here.
Again, see above. It literally changes everything. The entire point is their are millions of variables that go into making up our climate.
quote:Do the reasons for this need to be repeated for you? 1. CO2 is without doubt a greenhouse gas 2. our activity is without doubt increasing the level of atmospheric CO2.
And yet, you have gone all in on CO2 being the one evil.
So if you believe there is something else that we should focus on, I'm all ears. But my guess is you would rather keep pretending that digging up and burning shite willy-nilly will have no negative consequences.
Posted on 10/28/20 at 1:40 am to The Mick
Unpossible.
The progs say this is unprecedented.
The progs say this is unprecedented.
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