re: Do Russian history students learn about WWII the other way around?

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The people of Germany facilitated the holocaust by letting Hitler take power. 

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I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Surely you aren't suggesting the German people supported Hitler in the knowledge that he would engage in systematic extermination of the Jews, so I'd consider the linking of them morally to the action to be rather dubious. I think often it's convenient for us to try and make such assertions to justify the brutal measures we also took in conducting the war, but I don't find it to be particularly convincing.

Bumping this one last time in case anyone wants to continue the discussion today.

There's a good account of it in "the battle of Moscow", can't remember the author but so many what ifs revolve around the Eastern front. What if the Germans had postponed grinding down the Ukraine after conquest until they had secured the front? What if Stalingrad was contained instead of eating Germany's finest? What if the Italians were competent and didn't delay the German advance?

Russia was so prepared to lose Moscow they were training and falsifying documents to have insurgency in place. It was by a hair.

Im also curious about what German kids are taught.

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Im also curious about what German kids are taught.

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the Japs have a bit of a different take on WWII as well

I don't think you can say that the US was "fighting for our survival." The US mainland was never directly threatened by either Germany or Japan in the same way as those two countries were by us and others. The strategic bombing campaigns carried out against Germany and especially Japan were terror attacks against civilian populations, plain and simple. It was an ugly, ugly war all around, in which no one's hands were clean.

Here's an interesting thought question: if the strategic air campaigns of the Second World War had either not been carried out or made much more limited, so that the world never saw the wholesale destruction of cities from the air in that way, would an atomic war between the US and USSR in the 50's or 60's have been more likely to occur? I think so. I think WW2's extreme, unimaginable destruction is what caused both sides to shy away from using weapons that would be even worse. World War 2 was, in a sense, necessary so that the Cold War stayed cold.

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Surely you don't believe Hitler did all this by himself, or that a few thousand brown shirts pulled all this off?

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Of course not. But that's a far cry from laying blame or even knowledge at the feet of the lion's share of the German population. Without a doubt the mass killing efforts against the Jews were deliberately kept away from the German population and even the armed forces. The ultimate decision to even move to a policy of liquidation didn't take place until late 1941 anyhow, so how could the German population be held to account for a policy that never even existed prior to nearly 2 years into the war and which was made in supreme secrecy?

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I'm not saying every individual German helped Hitler, but they didn't stop him either. And they did support him in his war efforts. They supported his take over of Austria, Czechoslovakia, partitioning of Poland, the invasion of France, etc.

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That's all well and fine. I'd take issue with your portrayal of some of these events as being wholly unique and immoral or criminal on the geopolitical level, particularly in regards to the times, but that's another discussion altogether. My comment spoke narrowly towards the issue of laying blame on the German people for the Holocaust, not the reclaiming of German lands lost through Versailles, occupation of Czechoslovakia, or any other geopolitical measures.

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Thousands of Germans took direct part in that as the rest of Germany permitted their govt. to conquer their neighbors, and to wage war against much of the world.

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Again, the geopolitical context is much more complex and nuanced than the narrative of Germany seeking a continent wide conquest. That's not how the war unfolded but it does conveniently serve to excuse French and British policy decisions from having any meaningful role in the expansion of hostilities, which is also quite common in the West and rather less than forthright.

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And sure we used brutal measures against Germany, we were fighting for our survival as a nation. They declared war on us first, remember?

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I didn't suggest that our measures were out of line, I simply acknowledged that we used brutal measures as well, and that sometimes that creates discomfort in the minds of some Westerners who seek to paint ourselves as above those measures, particularly in a war we tend to paint ourselves as unconditionally good in. Thus they are inclined to seek to portray the people who were collateral damage in these endeavors as somehow different than mere civilians. It's an effort to rationalize and whitewash our brutality to maintain our self-flattering portrayal of ourselves.

And let's not pretend that Germany's declaration on the United States wasn't something heavily influenced by blatant American acts and posturing against Germany. Again, the black and white portrayals don't stand up to objective scrutiny and the true story is quite more complex.

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A nation's citizens have to be held responsible for the actions of their leaders.

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I mean, yes, this is war, this is the inevitable endgame of realpolitik for any losing party. But I'm looking purely at the veracity of many insinuations that the German people were complicit in the specific action of Jewish extermination, not that they were unjust victims of a national defeat.

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or the people in towns near camps who could see the smoke, the ash, and smell it. I have absolutely no sympathy for the German people during that time

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How many German people were living in towns near extermination camps? The death camps were in Poland, deliberately placed in far away territories from the German populace. Contrary to what many people even still believe to this day, the Germans were not engaged in extermination at their camps within Germany proper. The German people were not exposed to mass brutality and death of prisoners until very late in the war when prisoners from Eastern camps were moved into overcrowded camps within Germany. And to what extent even then they were exposed to it I have no idea, as I suspect they weren't loitering around concentration camps.

They were of course aware of forcible deportations. One can certainly place this awareness upon the whole of the people.

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I don't think you can say that the US was "fighting for our survival." The US mainland was never directly threatened by either Germany or Japan in the same way as those two countries were by us and others. The strategic bombing campaigns carried out against Germany and especially Japan were terror attacks against civilian populations, plain and simple. It was an ugly, ugly war all around, in which no one's hands were clean

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If allowed to win the war, do you think Japan or Germany would have just left us alone?

We know what each of these nations were capable of doing. They demonstrated that in WWII before we even entered the war.

The US was attacked by Japan, and Germany declared war on the United States. Each got what they deserved.

Weren't the Germans bombing civilian targets in Great Britain? Heck they did that while fighting on Franco's side in the Spanish civil war. We reciprocated, and I have no doubt if given the chance they would have bombed NYC, or the US mainland.

If you do not believe we were fighting for our survival, I can't help you. Just because the front lines were across the ocean doesn't mean the opposition wasn't any less of a threat if left to their own devices.

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I mean, yes, this is war, this is the inevitable endgame of realpolitik for any losing party. But I'm looking purely at the veracity of many insinuations that the German people were complicit in the specific action of Jewish extermination, not that they were unjust victims of a national defeat.

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The German people were responsible for Hitler. Certainly they didn't know everything he was doing, but they let him take control of their society, imprison and kill their fellow citizens, and attack their surrounding neighbors and supported him until the end.

And I realize its complex, but in the end the Germans voted the Nazis into office, they let them gain power, and they followed the Nazis until they were crushed by the Allies. Hitler took the easy way out as did many of the other Nazis. Some stood trial and faced the music later. The German people though had to rebuild and go through years and years or hardships they would not have faced if they had turned down the Nazis before they took over the govt.