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Message
re: Derek Chauvin trial - GUILTY ON ALL CHARGES. Update: His sentencing is today
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:44 am to Yellerhammer5
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:44 am to Yellerhammer5
quote:
Agreed that is seems unlikely. However, asphyxia doesn’t just cause instant death so I don’t think that information supports any one factor over another one.
Right but if their argument is that his oxygen went low enough to cause his heart to stop, how is it 98% when he gets to the ED more than 10 minutes after they say he died? Something doesn’t add up. We must be missing something because it’s too big of an issue for Nelson to miss.
quote:
And he’s full of shite on that. However, the jury will probably eat it up because he threw out a lot of numbers and specifics which will impress them.
Yes they will. All of his theoretical calculations and hypopharynx hypothesis which are 100% bullshite. Nelson should have done more to discredit him, but I’m guessing he didn’t want Tobin back on the stand for a rebuttal.
1
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:46 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Why didn't Nelson argue this? Sounds big..
Not sure. Maybe there are details about the testing we don’t know about.
Or maybe he's saving it for his closing argument? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury..... blah blah blah.....the prosecution would like you to believe GF's brain was starving for oxygen....blah, blah....98%....BOOM!
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:47 am to greygoose
quote:
He's a lawyer, not a medical professional
Understood... someone on his payroll should have caught this.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:50 am to greygoose
What I don't get is why the defense brought up the CO stuff anyways. It clearly didn't have much to do with the death. It really makes your solid defense in the days before look like you're trying for a hail mary at the end.
Plus if CO did kill George Floyd it opens the door for manslaughter because the cops held him there. Kind of torpedoing your own defense.
Plus if CO did kill George Floyd it opens the door for manslaughter because the cops held him there. Kind of torpedoing your own defense.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:54 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Right but if their argument is that his oxygen went low enough to cause his heart to stop, how is it 98% when he gets to the ED more than 10 minutes after they say he died? Something doesn’t add up. We must be missing something because it’s too big of an issue for Nelson to miss.
The prosecution’s argument was based on the wording of the DC, and I guess the pulmonologist just decided that the CP arrest happened during the restraint. I don’t remember if Baker said when he thought the CP arrest occurred. This was probably strategic so that they could point to a picture of chauvin with his knee on GF’s neck and say “this is when he died.”
In reality, however, asphyxial deaths are often delayed, so people who hang themselves often die hours, days, or even weeks later.
With that said, the prosecution probably doesn’t care because at the end of the day, it’s about swaying the jury not necessarily reaching the truth.
This post was edited on 4/16/21 at 9:59 am
Posted on 4/16/21 at 9:56 am to The Boat
quote:
What I don't get is why the defense brought up the CO stuff anyways. It clearly didn't have much to do with the death. It really makes your solid defense in the days before look like you're trying for a hail mary at the end.
Plus if CO did kill George Floyd it opens the door for manslaughter because the cops held him there. Kind of torpedoing your own defense.
Agreed. I think it was the worst mistake by the defense during the trial. He already has a solid case. I guess he was swinging for the fences, but his expert let him down.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 10:06 am to JDPndahizzy
quote:Yep, especially the South African forensic specialist.
Understood... someone on his payroll should have caught this.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 10:29 am to greygoose
quote:
quote:
Why didn't Nelson argue this? Sounds big...
He's a lawyer, not a medical professional. Apparently, none of the medical experts, prosecution and defense, caught that either. Yesterday brought all this to light with the sharp turn towards possible carbon monoxide poisoning. That's the first time I heard the ABG results.
Lawyers hate to ask questions they don't know the answer to. The question could have teed up the prosecution's doctor to go into a 20 min answer...
Nelson was really handicapped by the fact his guy was on a plane. I would think he's been fully debriefed now and potentially include it in the closing.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 11:01 am to Yellerhammer5
quote:
In reality, however, asphyxial deaths are often delayed, so people who hang themselves often die hours, days, or even weeks later.
Not disagreeing, but what do you mean by that? Someone can hang for days and still be alive? They are not conscious though right?
Posted on 4/16/21 at 11:11 am to The Boat
quote:
What I don't get is why the defense brought up the CO stuff anyways. It clearly didn't have much to do with the death. It really makes your solid defense in the days before look like you're trying for a hail mary at the end
Because the goal is to create reasonable doubt.
It’s just one more chink in the armor. The defense said CO could have contributed, not been responsible for his death.
They are trying to paint a picture where a perfect storm of events caused his death... bad heart, mix in some fentanyl and meth, throw in some adrenaline from a paraganglionoma, top it all with a sprinkle of CO... and all that put him over the edge.
CO was a fairly safe speculation because they had all the medical record and no test for carbon monoxide. That’s why the revelation of the carbon monoxide test at the last second is almost grounds for a mistrial all by itself. And it’s super shady.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 11:11 am to Tortious
quote:
Not disagreeing, but what do you mean by that? Someone can hang for days and still be alive? They are not conscious though right?
No, they are found after hanging for a period of minutes and die later in the ED or ICU.
This post was edited on 4/16/21 at 11:12 am
Posted on 4/16/21 at 11:14 am to Yellerhammer5
quote:
No, they are found after hanging for a period of minutes and die later in the ED or ICU.
Gotcha - thanks
Posted on 4/16/21 at 12:25 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Because the goal is to create reasonable doubt.
It’s just one more chink in the armor. The defense said CO could have contributed, not been responsible for his death.
They are trying to paint a picture where a perfect storm of events caused his death... bad heart, mix in some fentanyl and meth, throw in some adrenaline from a paraganglionoma, top it all with a sprinkle of CO... and all that put him over the edge.
CO was a fairly safe speculation because they had all the medical record and no test for carbon monoxide. That’s why the revelation of the carbon monoxide test at the last second is almost grounds for a mistrial all by itself. And it’s super shady.
Maybe I heard this wrong, but if you say a 98% oxygen saturation level in the blood - does that effectively mean it's only possible for 2% of carbon monoxide in the blood? I was getting a bit confused yesterday because I could of sworn the prosecution basically said that and the CO test is just attacking that theory from another angle. I'm still confused why their witness was able to testify again?
Posted on 4/16/21 at 1:03 pm to Yellerhammer5
quote:From complications due to brain damage, correct?
No, they are found after hanging for a period of minutes and die later in the ED or ICU.
GF died of cardiac arrest. How did they get an ABG with a 98% O2 sat with no heart beat?
Posted on 4/16/21 at 1:11 pm to greygoose
quote:
how does GF have an ABG, O2 sat of 98% with no pulse?
I had a 73% with pulse so I guess anything is possible.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 1:25 pm to Sherman Klump
quote:
Maybe I heard this wrong, but if you say a 98% oxygen saturation level in the blood - does that effectively mean it's only possible for 2% of carbon monoxide in the blood? I was getting a bit confused yesterday because I could of sworn the prosecution basically said that and the CO test is just attacking that theory from another angle. I'm still confused why their witness was able to testify again?
The defense was saying that a pulse oximeter is unreliable with CO poisoning. So if that’s all they did in the ED it wouldn’t help.
The prosecution came back with dr. Tobin and they said they have an arterial blood gas on 98% which is accurate and would mean the CO couldn’t be higher than 2%
Posted on 4/16/21 at 1:26 pm to greygoose
quote:
GF died of cardiac arrest. How did they get an ABG with a 98% O2 sat with no heart beat?
Exactly. An ABG at least 10 minutes after his heart stopped. I don’t see how it’s possible.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 1:49 pm to greygoose
quote:
GF died of cardiac arrest.
That’s a mechanism of death rather than a cause of death and would occur regardless of how GF died. Whether the cardiac arrest happened during restraint or afterwards doesn’t provide evidence for or against any of the possible factors in his death.
I already said that it would seem to argue against Tobin’s pinpoint time of cardiac arrest, but I don’t really know much about interpreting ABG’s on the dying or the potential issues/complications with analyzing these types of samples. If either side wanted to use this as some form of evidence, they would need to bring in an expert from the laboratory.
The fact that the oxygen saturation number doesn’t seem to make much sense in this setting regardless of how GF died should be enough to give you pause before overanalyzing it.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 2:04 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:It's not. No way to get the lungs to perfuse O2 into the bloodstream without circulation.
Exactly. An ABG at least 10 minutes after his heart stopped. I don’t see how it’s possible.
Posted on 4/16/21 at 2:12 pm to Yellerhammer5
quote:
That’s a mechanism of death rather than a cause of death and would occur regardless of how GF died. Whether the cardiac arrest happened during restraint or afterwards doesn’t provide evidence for or against any of the possible factors in his death.
I already said that it would seem to argue against Tobin’s pinpoint time of cardiac arrest, but I don’t really know much about interpreting ABG’s on the dying or the potential issues/complications with analyzing these types of samples. If either side wanted to use this as some form of evidence, they would need to bring in an expert from the laboratory.
The fact that the oxygen saturation number doesn’t seem to make much sense in this setting regardless of how GF died should be enough to give you pause before overanalyzing it.
No pulse found BEFORE EMS showed up=cardiac arrest. According to the testimony, cardiac arrest occurred due to asphyxiation. He was transported to the hospital, ABG drawn, with the result being an O2 sat of 98%. That alone is not possible. Now throw in asphyxiation as the cause, yet he still had a high O2 sat?
Seems to me, Floyd took the fentanyl/meth combo, exerted his self fighting with the cops in the car, heart rate goes up due to exertion, 90% occluded coronary artery, has sudden cardiac arrest. Hell, people die of heart attacks in their sleep all the time due to untreated sleep apnea.
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