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re: COVID Integral Calculus

Posted on 4/24/20 at 3:59 am to
Posted by Korkstand
Member since Nov 2003
29134 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 3:59 am to
quote:

Perhaps on this board. But in the genpop? Hail focking no.
Every single chart with a "flatten the curve" example has a hospital capacity line on it. Every single one of them. They also all clearly show the "flattened" curve to go on for a longer period of time. There are even animated ones that show the curve flattening while retaining the same area. Some of them even clearly spell out "total infections remains the same". But those that don't spell it out still make it pretty clear that the total infections won't be reduced, at least not significantly and at least not before a vaccine arrives.

Even the dumbest of my dumb "friends" on facebook seem to understand that the only goal of social distancing is to reduce the number of people who get sick at once so as to not overload hospitals.
Posted by Spasweezy
Unfortunately, Louisiana
Member since Jan 2014
7269 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 4:00 am to
Cool.
Posted by Korkstand
Member since Nov 2003
29134 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 4:02 am to
quote:

I did it in my head earlier in a convo about this, and dude didn't question it, so I thought it was right.

But, yeah, that's my bad.

You probably should have left this thread in your head.
Posted by aTmTexas Dillo
East Texas Lake
Member since Sep 2018
24679 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:51 am to
quote:

What's simple about all of this, but which appears to be escaping many people is that "flattening the curve" doesn't mean fewer infections. The area under the curve remains the same. That's both science.....and math.


I don't believe this. If people are separated and the peak is flattened, then less people will transmit the disease. If less people transmit the disease then less total people will get it or die from it. If less people get it or die from it then the area under the curve is not the same. So I don't buy your premise.

Edit: Early predictions were over 2 million deaths or a range of 1 plus to 2 plus million. If we were only flattening curve to manage hospital capacity then 2 plus million would still die but over a longer time. Still don't buy the "flatten the curve" stuff. They are MD's and Virologists and not mathematicians. I agree there may be a few medical statisticians out there talking this stuff. They are loosely using the term. It is not a statistical/area under the curve term as they use it.
This post was edited on 4/24/20 at 6:59 am
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
82469 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 7:00 am to
Um....idea is to avoid being Italy (running out of beds and ventilators) and to buy time to find a cure.
Posted by Privateer 2007
Member since Jan 2020
7951 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 8:18 am to
quote:

even my dumb friends understand total infected remains the same


There is a banner on this page

STAY AT HOME STOP THE SPREAD

there are billboards all over

WE WIN BY STAYING IN

I realize we all understand. But, if your dumb friends understand consider yourself lucky.
A sizeable portion of population thinks we can just stay in and virus goes away.


Posted by Ronaldo Burgundiaz
NWA
Member since Jan 2012
6795 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 8:31 am to
quote:

My mom had her mammogram rescheduled.
This is a concern for me.

The key to beating cancer is catching it early. There are 1.8 million cancer diagnoses per year (about 5,000 per day). The vast majority of those diagnoses have not been taking place over the last 2 months.

That is going to be a lot of unnecessary progression to later stage cancers.
Posted by mdomingue
Lafayette, LA
Member since Nov 2010
48733 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 8:38 am to
quote:

What's simple about all of this, but which appears to be escaping many people is that "flattening the curve" doesn't mean fewer infections. The area under the curve remains the same.


I think most people even marginally following COVID-19 already know this.

quote:

That's both science.....and math.


Math is a science by some definitions. It is not an empirical science like the natural sciences, which is why there is debate.

The whole point of flattening the curve was to avoid overwhelming the medical system by spreading out the infections. There was also some hope we could reach a position where the most at risk can be protected by a vaccine or possibly herd immunity and we could possibly lower the death count. Not sure if we will effectively do the latter, only time will tell.

Another unstated benefit of the longer time span is the ability to better understand the virus prior to have as large a umber of people getting infected.

Posted by BRIllini07
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2015
3211 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 8:57 am to
quote:

For example, with a R0 between 2.5 to 2.6, roughly 60% of a population needs to be infected to reach the herd immunity level, about 200 million in the United States. But if 70 or 80 percent are infected because it’s overshot, then you’re looking at an additional 30 to 60 million infected.


I think a singular R0 is extremely simplified for a population as diverse in living arrangements habits of the USA. This may be why the IMHE models initially overshot on any area that isn't the Northeast.

IMO you probably end up with 4 distinct regions:

International Urban: In the US, this is NYC and to some extent places like Chicago (though not nearly the same as NYC). Highly dense population and "going about your day" brings you into contact with many, many people. Heavy reliance on public transportation. Typical of most cities worldwide, but actually rare in the USA.

American Urban: Dallas/LA/Houston etc.. large cities with large populations. But, living your average Wednesday does not actually put you in close contact with that many people if you don't want it to. Pockets of spread possible, especially in lower income areas where there is reliance on the public transportation system and more packed living arrangements. Proximity of entertainment will lead to more group spread possibilities especially among the younger population.

Suburban: A large chunk of the US population, not so much worldwide. Normal day brings you into contact with your coworkers and your family... and that's about it. Maybe a few close friends. Partakes in less group spread opportunities than the urban groups.

Rural: Pending on your job, fairly easy to trace contacts without even really trying.

Models that end up assuming we all are blindly moving and randomly interacting with each other are going to overshoot the number of cases and deaths considerably, especially if the plugged in R0 number is based on a demographic that's different than our own.

NYC it's going to spread like London (calculated R0 >3 last I saw). The others it'll be naturally lower, and maybe low enough that not a whole lot of restriction is required to keep the spread under control once you get out to rural area and some bedroom communities.





Posted by aTmTexas Dillo
East Texas Lake
Member since Sep 2018
24679 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 9:23 am to
Then forty or fifty million Americans should get this disease. We’re not even close.
Posted by aTmTexas Dillo
East Texas Lake
Member since Sep 2018
24679 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 9:27 am to
Less than a million cases in US so far. Going to be tough to get to 40 million.
Worldwide less than 3 million cases.
They’re a lot of mathematical models here that aren’t playing out as calculated. I think they chose the wrong formula.
Posted by paperwasp
2x HRV 2025 Poster of the Year
Member since Sep 2014
31046 posts
Posted on 4/24/20 at 9:27 am to
quote:

like how all these charts and projections assume some precise mathematical flow, when they've been drastically modifying the forecasts every day.

Yeah, the curve fit is amazingly smooth, but the raw data is all over the place.
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