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Message
re: Confederate Flag vs. US Flag
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:05 am to Breesus
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:05 am to Breesus
quote:
Yes but the main cause and main outcomes of the war weren't slavery.
They were the federal government cementing and consolidating absolute power.
This is 100% true even by Lincoln's own words. To say that the civil war was only about slavery is ignorant at best. It was a catalyst for the larger issue. The South did not want the northern states telling them what to do with their slaves. The North used slavery as a talking point for the eventual war. The South, which was poorer than the north, did not feel that teh North had any rights to tell them waht to do with their slave labor, seeing as teh North benefitted from slave labor themselves. The south directly traded with northern states. The cotton in New York, came from the fields in the South, and they got said goods cheaper because of slave labor.
Lincoln, was an ideologist, and won a very narrow and contested election. The division between south and north was partly due to results of that election. Lincoln also did not care for slavery. It wasn't a main point for him, but ideologically he couldn't agree with it. However, he also knew that a divided nation would fall to a foreign aggressor. So he tried to toe the line between ideology and good of the country. The split happened, then well into the war, he issued the emancipation proclimation. This was issued after the war started, not before, and only freed the slaves in teh South, not the Northern states.
This is a very generalized description of the events leadng up to the civil war. There are idiots on both sides. Those that say "the civil war wasn't about slavery" aren't 100% correct. The idiots saying "the civil war was about slavery" aren't 100% correct. War is never as cut and dry as good vs. evil (WW2 being the closest exception). War is a continuation of politics by other means. The civil war was simply politics. Any idiot trying to say it was a single issue, probably has a drool stain on his shirt.
2
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:13 am to slackster
quote:
plenty of people think the flag stuff is bull shite either way, but the only people I've ever met who flew the confederate battle flag were racists as frick.
I once knew of an old black fella that had an actual flag pole in his front yard, on which he flew a US flag, followed by a Confederate battle flag.
Guess he was just an uneducated, racist frick?
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:14 am to Azranod
Wow he must have been an epic troll.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:17 am to therick711
Lincoln's second inaugural address to me captures the role of slavery in the war.(3rd paragraph quoted)
quote:
One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:23 am to BugAC
To say it was fought between those for and against slavery is asinine, I agree. However, as I've said many times, every single issue in the South centered upon slavery. They didn't think the the North had any right to tell them what dk with their slaves, they didn't want to lose power to additional territories and states that were going to be free, they didn't know how to run their economy without slaves, etc.
In summary, the South was willing to leave and did leave the Union in order to keep slavery.
In summary, the South was willing to leave and did leave the Union in order to keep slavery.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:29 am to slackster
quote:
However, as I've said many times, every single issue in the South centered upon slavery.
Sure, if you want to ignore the federal government's actions from 1850 on in admitting states to the Union.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 10:41 am to slackster
quote:
To say it was fought between those for and against slavery is asinine, I agree. However, as I've said many times, every single issue in the South centered upon slavery. They didn't think the the North had any right to tell them what dk with their slaves, they didn't want to lose power to additional territories and states that were going to be free, they didn't know how to run their economy without slaves, etc.
In summary, the South was willing to leave and did leave the Union in order to keep slavery.
Exactly.
Substitute trade with a foreign country. Say the south traded with a foreign country that was dependent upon the economy's success. Well if the North tried to penalize or end said trade with that country, the south would falter. The same result would happen.
The difference with slavery is it adds a human rights element. Which back in the day, the North didn't really care about that either, or the Emanc. Proc. would have applied to all states, not just rebel states.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 11:22 am to slackster
Right, that's why he would go through the effort of actually raising two flags in his front yard daily, was to make a huge joke.
> Posted on 5/20/16 at 12:25 pm to BobBarker
quote:
It literally wasn't, according to factual history.
quote:
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."
quote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.
quote:
. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.
quote:
- Alexander H. Stephens, First and only Vice President of the Confederate States of America, March 21, 1861. The Civil War was fought over slavery. Quit with the revisionist's history.
History is written by the victor.
When I was in school we were taught that indentured servants were paid a wage for the crops they produced; however, they had to rent land to farm, a house, and tools from a plantation owner. The indentured servant had to pay for their family's medical expenses, clothing, and whatever food they ate. We were taught all the expenses that an indentured servant incurred always exceeded the what they were paid for the crop they raised. This was why the term for them was indentured, because they owed a debt to the plantation owner and must work for them to pay it off. It was right there in our history books.
However, if you look up indentured servants now, it is defined as:
quote:
A person under contract to work for another person for a definite period of time, usually without pay but in exchange for free passage to a new country. During the seventeenth century most of the white laborers in Maryland and Virginia came from England as indentured servants.
History can be written after the fact. Especially when anyone alive at the time is dead.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:13 pm to RandySavage
quote:
it was a common practice in those days across the world
Factually incorrect. Slavery had already started to be phased out in nearly every contemporary of the US, even a number of cultures that are considered "behind" the US at that point
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:16 pm to RandySavage
While I'm not for the removal of confederate symbols. I will say that it's pretty fricking stupid to continue to allow the display of the battle flag of the side that lost the civil war.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:16 pm to Azranod
Just not sure why anyone would want to fly the flag symbolic of being traitors to their own country.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:23 pm to GenesChin
The same reason that people wear the shirt of an enemy of their country, I suppose.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:31 pm to BugAC
People's "gotcha" quote about the emancipation proclamation is always the two northern slave states. Both of which were moving to abolish slavery on their own.
See this was in 1861, that's two years before the emancipation proclamation freeing slaves in rebellion states.
It is true though that the Democrat majority of Deleware rejected emancipation as long as possible.
But to tie that in as being 'Lincoln's doing' is wrong. Lincoln's cabinet made multiple attempts to bring it's slave states in line before emaciation proclamation in Janurary of '1863.
[link=(
quote:
By the time the Civil War began, fewer than 1,800 slaves lived in Delaware, and 75 percent of them were in Sussex County, mostly in the Nanticoke River basin in the far southwest of the state. In the fall of 1861, Lincoln proposed to George P. Fisher, Delaware congressman, a plan to compensate Delaware's remaining slaveholders from federal funds if they would free their slaves. Lincoln hoped that, if this could be shown to work in Delaware, it could be done as well in Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, and eventually become a model for the states then in the Confederacy. In his proposal to Fisher, he called it the "cheapest and most humane way of ending this war and saving lives."
See this was in 1861, that's two years before the emancipation proclamation freeing slaves in rebellion states.
It is true though that the Democrat majority of Deleware rejected emancipation as long as possible.
quote:
As it turned out, Kentucky and Delaware, among the border states, continued to tolerate slavery, even after Lee's surrender. Delaware's General Assembly refused to ratify the 13th Amendment, calling it an illegal extension of federal powers over the states. Only in December 1865, when the 13th Amendment went into effect on a national scale, did slavery cease in Delaware. By then there were only a few hundred left.
But to tie that in as being 'Lincoln's doing' is wrong. Lincoln's cabinet made multiple attempts to bring it's slave states in line before emaciation proclamation in Janurary of '1863.
[link=(
This post was edited on 5/20/16 at 1:33 pm
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:36 pm to GenesChin
quote:
not sure why anyone would want to fly the flag symbolic of being traitors to their own country.
Agreed. It's pretty fricking stupid.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:42 pm to GenesChin
quote:
Just not sure why anyone would want to fly the flag symbolic of being traitors to their own country.
Maybe to some it's a silent form of protest to the Federal government because they are aware that the government overstepped it's authority.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:49 pm to Azranod
fricking stupid line of "reasoning."
Posted on 5/20/16 at 2:15 pm to slackster
quote:
willing to leave and did leave the Union in order to keep slavery.
Yep, and the Union invaded the south in order to force them back into the Union. Which wasn't really constitutional, the south had a right to secede, they just did it for a really fricked up reason. They didn't go in to abolish slavery. That was a political power play by Lincoln to win support for the war in the abolishionist north. I just find it ridiculous that a ton of southerners will argue until their blue in the face that war was about tariffs or some other bullshite.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 2:20 pm to BobBarker
quote:
Because the Army of Northern Virginia was a bunch of frickboys who got their ignorant asses handed to them by the much superior Army of the Potomac. Personally I think if you want to look like an ignorant dumbass and fly the Stars and Bars you can go right along with it. Why do you want to fly the colors of a bunch of losers anyway? You're basically flying the official flag of suckage anyway. Sherman and Grant handed your ancestors their own asses on their home turf. God the Confederacy sucked. USA-1 CSA-0
I wonder how the up/down votes to this post would change if posted on a message board in the B1G
ETA: I find it fascinating to read the eloquent speeches of the politicians of the time of the civil war. It's like reading damn poetry. And that was in a time when the public was supposedly much less educated than today. Today speeches are written at a 4th-6th grade level. Sad commentary on our society.
This post was edited on 5/20/16 at 2:49 pm
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