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Started By
Message
re: Confederate Flag vs. US Flag
Posted on 5/20/16 at 12:39 am to Breesus
Posted on 5/20/16 at 12:39 am to Breesus
quote:
Dafuq does that mean?
Giving you shite for your South Park awfulness
quote:
It ok if you failed History class in high school. I'm not judging you.
I said in the post to which you originally replied, but I'll say it again - people have romanticized the Civil War over time. You can spin it a bunch of different ways, but the bottom line is that if slavery wouldn't have been threatened, the war wouldn't have happened.
2
Posted on 5/20/16 at 12:56 am to slackster
quote:
Giving you shite for your South Park awfulness
I'm not awful. South Park's writing and direction the last two seasons was.
quote:
slavery wouldn't have been threatened, the war wouldn't have happened.
If you honestly believe the federal government wasn't salivating at the thought of consolidating power you're crazy.
They didn't start the major push about slavery and abolition and all of that until half way through the way when the support for the war was waining in the north and the South had the upper hand. They needed a cause to rally the troops and the people, they found it and stuck to it.
Sure, slavery and abolition played a part in the war, but states rights and federal power were the core reason for the war and the absolute most important outcomes for the winning side.
If equality and an end to slavery and humanitarian justice for all was the true reason for the war do you think the north would've allowed everything that happened between 1865 and 1965? They couldn't give two shits. Look at the actual history of what happened in the south following the war and what the north did about it.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:07 am to Breesus
quote:
If equality and an end to slavery and humanitarian justice for all was the true reason for the war do you think the north would've allowed everything that happened between 1865 and 1965? They couldn't give two shits. Look at the actual history of what happened in the south following the war and what the north did about it.
I don't disagree with any of this. I've never insinuated that the Civil War was fought because the North was some altruistic power that wanted to free slaves and equality for all. My point has always been that slavery was the root cause of the South wanting to bail, and everything basically fell in line after that. They thought the Union was coming for their slaves and their way of life, and they weren't going to sit around and wait for it to happen.
We can discuss states' rights and nationalism and all kinds of other subplots, but they all revolve around the South's inability to let slavery go.
When I say the Civil War was about slavery, I don't mean that it was the pro-slavery side against the anti-slavery side, at least not to start as you pointed out. However, the South was always pro-slavery and every reason they had for secession revolved around slavery.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:16 am to slackster
quote:
However, the South was always pro-slavery
As was the north, it's leaders, and the president. They didn't even end slavery when the war ended. They just ended slavery in the states which rebelled as a punishment for rebelling, a show of power, and bullshite pandering technique.
quote:
My point has always been that slavery was the root cause of the South wanting to bail
A bunch of liberal frick northern dipshits asserting their beliefs and thoughts over people and places they don't understand without thinking about the consequences in the form of gross Federal government overreach into the powers of the states is the reason the South wanted to leave.
It's a problem that persists into today.
Good talk, bub.
Breesus out.
This post was edited on 5/20/16 at 1:19 am
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:18 am to Breesus
quote:
Breesus out.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:30 am to slackster
quote:
Because whether you agree with it or not, the US flag is not directly affiliated with slavery and genocide and all of these other atrocities that took place under its watch. Perception is reality to Americans, so the US flag gets a pass. It is what it is.
The Cherokee and many other Native Americans think otherwise.
They were fighting a war against a government that was looking to eradicate them.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:32 am to willymeaux
I'm not arguing that genocide and slavery didn't exist under the US flag. My point is that to the average American, they simply don't give a shite. The perception from the average Joe is that all is well and has been well.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 1:53 am to Breesus
quote:
It literally wasn't, according to factual history.
quote:
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."
quote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.
quote:
. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.
- Alexander H. Stephens, First and only Vice President of the Confederate States of America, March 21, 1861.
The Civil War was fought over slavery. Quit with the revisionist's history.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 2:05 am to BobBarker
quote:
The Civil War was fought over slavery. Quit with the revisionist's history.
Even though I agree, I think it needs to be clarified so people don't continue to act as thought the North was this altruistic society that came down the free the slaves in the South, because that is not what happened nor was it their intention.
The South was worried slavery was coming to an end and basically secession was their way out to protect their interest. The North leadership was much more concerned about the South pitching a fit and leaving than they were about freeing slaves and equal rights, but that was the motivation for many of the actual soldiers involved.
In the context of the confederate battle flag discussion it is ridiculous to imply that the Civil War was fought over anything other than the protection of slavery in the South, but in the historical sense the North doesn't get a pass either.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 5:05 am to RandySavage
Because people are generally stupid. They dont bother to study history or learn anything. They take what there told from idiot peers and run with it like its the gospel.
A book to a millinial is like Kryptonite to Superman.
A book to a millinial is like Kryptonite to Superman.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 5:08 am to Breesus
Well said !
Posted on 5/20/16 at 6:03 am to RandySavage
The star and stripes is the flag of an active, currently existing country.
/thread
/thread
This post was edited on 5/20/16 at 6:04 am
Posted on 5/20/16 at 6:15 am to RandySavage
Well. The wrong side won think most people would a agree
Posted on 5/20/16 at 6:16 am to RandySavage
Only weak minded fools get offended about a flag.
The civil was part of history and should not be erased. Our so called leaders need to stop bending to the SJW types and tell them to frick off and go home.
The civil was part of history and should not be erased. Our so called leaders need to stop bending to the SJW types and tell them to frick off and go home.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 8:23 am to AU66
Shhhhhhh, let's not bring facts into this .
Them damn racist redneck southerners rabble Derp Derp!
Them damn racist redneck southerners rabble Derp Derp!
Posted on 5/20/16 at 8:50 am to RandySavage
Isn't the better question why do we let people that wear Che Guevara t-shirts tell us what flags and monuments are ok and which aren't? Hipsters love them so Che Guevara. Isn't that the same fricking thing?
Posted on 5/20/16 at 8:55 am to Makinbacon
quote:
Shhhhhhh, let's not bring facts into this .
Them damn racist redneck southerners rabble Derp Derp!
On a serious note, I can defend people's right to fly the flag all day without hesitation. My point in the entire thread is that you should be consistent with your reasoning when other people fly other flags.
My other point is that my anecdotal evidence, of which there is plenty, is that people who actually fly the confederate flag are openly racists. Doesn't mean everyone who flies it is racist, nor does it mean the flag is racist, but the next person I meet who flies it and is NOT a racist will be the first.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 9:03 am to Breesus
I never got less than an A in history and anyone who thinks that slavery was not a root cause is a moron.
Sure it was states rights. You CAN say that, but what was the right that started the fight? The right of newly admitted states to own slaves or not. Sure two union states had slaves, and it can even be said Maryland was forced to stay in the Union when many wanted to join the confederacy. That is all relevant, but the fact remains the southern economy was based on slave labor. It was not ready at that time to go to a wage based system for agriculture. Yes modern economists can show that had they simply paid low wages instead of buying the slaves it may not have been much more of an investment, especially if they used a system like serfdom or sharecropping. Even so, slavery was the status quo and the only way plantation owners knew to make money. The plantation class got the middle and business classes to buy into states rights, and "smart" history teachers in the south will tell their classes that it was states rights that started the war. Yet ask that teacher, which 'right pushed it over the edge, which ignited the fire?
Why did states leave the union as soon as an abolitionist was elected? The economies of the two northern slave states were not as dependent on the slavery as the southern states, Atlanta, New Orleans, Charleston, they were built by plantation owners. The ruling class at that time was doing all they could to maintain their way of life. The average confederate was little effected by slavery, yet by believing in his states rights, he was more willing to fight. Then believing this after defeat made dealing with the defeat easier. Let's face it, had the north had no intention of ever abolishing slavery and there were no limits on new slaves states the south would have never left. Charleston's mumblings would have been a footnote in History like the South Carolina nullification decades earlier.
Sure it was states rights. You CAN say that, but what was the right that started the fight? The right of newly admitted states to own slaves or not. Sure two union states had slaves, and it can even be said Maryland was forced to stay in the Union when many wanted to join the confederacy. That is all relevant, but the fact remains the southern economy was based on slave labor. It was not ready at that time to go to a wage based system for agriculture. Yes modern economists can show that had they simply paid low wages instead of buying the slaves it may not have been much more of an investment, especially if they used a system like serfdom or sharecropping. Even so, slavery was the status quo and the only way plantation owners knew to make money. The plantation class got the middle and business classes to buy into states rights, and "smart" history teachers in the south will tell their classes that it was states rights that started the war. Yet ask that teacher, which 'right pushed it over the edge, which ignited the fire?
Why did states leave the union as soon as an abolitionist was elected? The economies of the two northern slave states were not as dependent on the slavery as the southern states, Atlanta, New Orleans, Charleston, they were built by plantation owners. The ruling class at that time was doing all they could to maintain their way of life. The average confederate was little effected by slavery, yet by believing in his states rights, he was more willing to fight. Then believing this after defeat made dealing with the defeat easier. Let's face it, had the north had no intention of ever abolishing slavery and there were no limits on new slaves states the south would have never left. Charleston's mumblings would have been a footnote in History like the South Carolina nullification decades earlier.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 9:04 am to slackster
quote:
, but the bottom line is that if slavery wouldn't have been threatened, the war wouldn't have happened.
Posted on 5/20/16 at 9:08 am to BobBarker
lol and you get Downvotes because your source was a Confederate Government official and not some backwoods southern History teacher who instills in their kids that "The war of northern aggression had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with States Rights"
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