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Message
re: AP: Parents begged cops to enter school as shooting unfolded. Cops refused
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:15 pm to BilJ
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:15 pm to BilJ
quote:
no no no no every available officer should be storming the building
this is what is taught in active shooter training.
quote:
guns blazing..
what does this mean? The officers are taught in active shooter training to go towards the gunfire to eliminate the threat.
0
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:18 pm to AUCE05
quote:
Criminal charges for these police officers if they just set by why this was happening
as much as I agree with you, the parkland shooting ruling will absolve them.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:19 pm to Bronc
quote:
According to multiple eyewitnesses
Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable in these circumstances. But if what the eye witnesses are saying is correct, then the cops should have done everything in their power to breach the door and engage the shooter.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:22 pm to UpToPar
quote:
the cops should have done everything in their power to breach the door and engage the shooter.
basically cops are trained for this active shooter situation and it is protocol but if they don't want to, that's ok too according to the law.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:24 pm to UpToPar
A couple things people are not considering IMO. You can't convince me that if there were 10+ cops, none wanted to go in. Multiple officers had kids there.
Therefore, IF they didn't go in for awhile, why? Seems it would have had to been a leadership decision. That's who should be looked at.
2ndly, the 2nd issue here is the "golden hour" after someone has been shot. The kids needed medical treatment asap. That's a big issue with waiting.
Therefore, IF they didn't go in for awhile, why? Seems it would have had to been a leadership decision. That's who should be looked at.
2ndly, the 2nd issue here is the "golden hour" after someone has been shot. The kids needed medical treatment asap. That's a big issue with waiting.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:31 pm to baldona
quote:
Multiple officers had kids there.
I mean there is the unverified claims from several people that were there that some cops did enter and get their own kids out.
But I agree, I would assume much of the breakdown and refusal to engage with urgency, if that ultimately accurately describes what happened, likely started from the top and the rest of the Leo's followed suite.
And it also fits that may explain why a completely separate outside group ultimately attempted the second breach. Leadership may have directed everyone to set up a perimeter ala Columbine and wait til optimal conditions for their cops, or wait for "others" to take over. Which, if that is true, they need to be fired at a minimum.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:45 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
What building did he get in? I thought it was one of the back buildings, but also saw a diagram putting it as middle building that was right behind main entrance.
School had so many buildings (from satellite view hard to tell if connections were just covered walk ways or closed off or how used plus may be old view). It also wasn’t a school that had a secured area for visitors until cleared through, but with isolated buildings that would only help (or at least slow down killer while entire school does lockdown procedures) if all other entry points were secure. Putting a chest high fence around campus isn’t going to stop something like this.
Design seems hard to secure & limit access completely. In this case it may have harder for killer to move building to building once cops there, but that is just more happenstance of old design not it’s security plan. Might have created more independent actions for clearing each building. If the Border unit had to get a key to open door the school may have installed secure doors that also may have limited him getting to more students but may helped him once was he was already inside (even if hypothetically the cops had
Immediately gone in or if other weapons).
If door killer used was unlocked I wonder if this door being unlocked was due to the awards ceremony an hour or two before (at least in one article). I have seen better secured schools get a little more lackadaisical with limiting access points during end of year activities.
School had so many buildings (from satellite view hard to tell if connections were just covered walk ways or closed off or how used plus may be old view). It also wasn’t a school that had a secured area for visitors until cleared through, but with isolated buildings that would only help (or at least slow down killer while entire school does lockdown procedures) if all other entry points were secure. Putting a chest high fence around campus isn’t going to stop something like this.
Design seems hard to secure & limit access completely. In this case it may have harder for killer to move building to building once cops there, but that is just more happenstance of old design not it’s security plan. Might have created more independent actions for clearing each building. If the Border unit had to get a key to open door the school may have installed secure doors that also may have limited him getting to more students but may helped him once was he was already inside (even if hypothetically the cops had
Immediately gone in or if other weapons).
If door killer used was unlocked I wonder if this door being unlocked was due to the awards ceremony an hour or two before (at least in one article). I have seen better secured schools get a little more lackadaisical with limiting access points during end of year activities.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 4:46 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:51 pm to LSUZombie
quote:
mean what happens if grief-stricken parents enter a school with an active shooter?
Doesn't sound like potential for a good ending.
This is from an article quoting The Wall Street Journal. I don'y have the direct link due to paywall.
LINK
quote:
Angeli Rose Gomez drove 40 miles to the school upon hearing of the shooting, and she arrived, said "The police were doing nothing. They were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."...
While state officials said that police were at the school mere moments after the teen gunman entered the school, barricading himself in a classroom and opening fire on young students, they also said that officers were unable to gain access to the classroom.
Gomez said that she was only one of several parents at the school demanding that officers stop waiting around and go into the school. It was then that "federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs," the Journal reports.
The marshals told her she was being arrested for "intervening in an active investigation." Gomez was able to convince local law enforcement to free her, but said she also saw a father pepper-sprayed, and another tackled and thrown to the ground by law enforcement as he tried to go to the school. His 10-year-old daughter was massacred in the slaughter.
Once freed, Gomez moved away from the crowd, broke into a run, jumped a fence, and ran inside to rescue her children. "She sprinted out of the school with them," the Journal reports
Seemed to work ok to me.
The parents were rightfully pissed that a bunch of AR carrying armored up cops were more worried about parents "respecting their authority" than doing whatever the frick was necessary tp enter that room and end the threat so that any potential survivors could receive medical attention, If you can't understand that you are lost. An hour delay is pathetic.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 3:53 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:54 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
So many tough guys who wouldn’t ever run towards gun fire.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:54 pm to SpartanSoul
Several of the factual assertions in this thread appear to be erroneous, based on the most recent reporting. From the WSJ:
quote:
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U.S.
Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering
As police detail new timeline of mass shooting at elementary school, community members express anger and frustration
A makeshift memorial at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, where 19 children and two teachers were killed this week.
PHOTO: ALLISON DINNER/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
By Elizabeth FindellFollow
, Rob CopelandFollow
and Douglas BelkinFollow
Updated May 26, 2022 4:06 pm ET
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UVALDE, Texas—The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said in a news conference Thursday laying out a new timeline of events.
Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said he couldn’t say why no one stopped the now deceased gunman, 18 year-old Salvador Ramos, from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes after he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.
DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school. “There was not an officer readily available and armed,” Mr. Escalon said.
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Ramos shot his grandmother Tuesday morning and then used her truck to drive to Robb Elementary School, crashing the truck into a nearby ditch at 11:28 a.m., according to the timeline laid out by Mr. Escalon. The gunman then began shooting at people at a funeral home across the street, prompting a 911 call reporting a gunman at the school at 11:30. Ramos then climbed a fence onto school grounds and began firing before walking inside, unimpeded, at 11:40. The first police arrived on the scene at 11:44 and exchanged gunfire with Ramos, who barricaded himself in a fourth-grade classroom. There, he killed the students and teachers.
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A Border Patrol tactical team went into the school an hour later, around 12:40, was able to get into the classroom and kill Ramos, Mr. Escalon said.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 3:59 pm to dallastigers
quote:
What building did he get in? I thought it was one of the back buildings, but also saw a diagram putting it as middle building that was right behind main entrance.
School had so many buildings (from satellite view hard to tell if connections were just covered walk ways or closed off or how used plus may be old view). It also wasn’t a school that had a secured area for visitors until cleared through, but with isolated buildings that would only help (or at least slow down killer while entire school does lockdown procedures) if all other entry points were secure. Putting a chest high fence around campus isn’t going to stop something like this.
Design seems hard to secure & limit access completely. In this case it may have harder for killer to move building to building once cops there, but that is just more happenstance of old design not it’s security plan. Might have created more independent actions for clearing each building. If the Border unit had to get a key to open door the school may have installed secure doors that also may have limited him getting to more students but may helped him once was he was already inside (even if hypothetically the cops had
Immediately gone in or if other weapons).
If door killer used was unlocked I wonder if this door being unlocked was due to the awards ceremony earlier. I have seen more secure schools get a little more lackadaisical with end of year activities with limiting access points.
Cops keep changing their stories, but now it appears the gunman crashed his car, spent 12 minutes shooting outside, at nearby buildings/people and at the school, no officer ever actually confronted him during this period. Climbed the chain link fence, entered an unlocked door, fired a high number of shots upon finally entering.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:04 pm to UpToPar
quote:
My point is there is no way to be absolutely certain of the situation in the room, and there's no absolutely no way to be certain whether entering the room and engaging the shooter or waiting is going to save more lives.
I feel like I'm talking in circles with you. Your flawed logic is why so many were killed in Columbine, needlessly. They treated as a hostage situation with similar logic. Which is why the protocol was changed for situations with active shooters.
quote:
They can make educated decisions based on the information they have, but either decision is going to require assumptions.
Of course. It's a game of risk. Protocol for active shooters is based on risk, and that is to engage. Not sit and wait and assume that the active shooter has done all the killing he wanted to do. This is because there is a greater risk for loss of life by not engaging vs engaging.
quote:
That's not true at all. First of all, they were absolutely correct to keep "people" out of the building (assuming the "people" you are referencing here are not emergency responders). Second, if they had reason to believe everyone else in the room was dead or that entering the room at that point would put more lives at risk then it is reasonable to wait.
I shouldn't have put "people"...not what I meant. I agree with you here.
I won't say anything else on this, except for that I'll be interested to see how they explain their actions. I'll be surprised to learn if they acted appropriately, given what we know now...however it's possible my mind could be changed, but not probable.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:12 pm to Bronc
quote:
Cops keep changing their stories, but now it appears the gunman crashed his car, spent 12 minutes shooting outside, at nearby buildings/people and at the school, no officer ever actually confronted him during this period. Climbed the chain link fence, entered an unlocked door, fired a high number of shots upon finally entering.
Why did he wreck his car? The original story was that he was pursued by officers was it not? He drove into a concrete drainage ditch and wrecked his truck, 2 of his tires came off the axle.
Why not just park on the side of the road?
There's gotta be some details missing.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:13 pm to baldona
What a fricking shite show the response to this was from LEO. Until this afternoon I was inclined to give them some room to clarify the timeline and benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like it is even worse than others were speculating.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:14 pm to SpartanSoul
quote:
Angeli Rose Gomez drove 40 miles to the school upon hearing of the shooting, and she arrived, said "The police were doing nothing. They were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."...
While state officials said that police were at the school mere moments after the teen gunman entered the school, barricading himself in a classroom and opening fire on young students, they also said that officers were unable to gain access to the classroom.
Gomez said that she was only one of several parents at the school demanding that officers stop waiting around and go into the school. It was then that "federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs," the Journal reports.
The marshals told her she was being arrested for "intervening in an active investigation." Gomez was able to convince local law enforcement to free her, but said she also saw a father pepper-sprayed, and another tackled and thrown to the ground by law enforcement as he tried to go to the school. His 10-year-old daughter was massacred in the slaughter.
Once freed, Gomez moved away from the crowd, broke into a run, jumped a fence, and ran inside to rescue her children. "She sprinted out of the school with them," the Journal reports
I bet this mother is thanking God she acted with emotion when in a "dangerous situation that requires logic" as that one poster suggested is only something out of a Disney movie
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:15 pm to baldona
quote:
Why did he wreck his car? The original story was that he was pursued by officers was it not? He drove into a concrete drainage ditch and wrecked his truck, 2 of his tires came off the axle.
Why not just park on the side of the road?
There's gotta be some details missing.
He was probably in a frenzy and driving erratically
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:15 pm to DmitriKaramazov
quote:
lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school
I certainly hope this isn't true. I don't see how the School Resource officer would not have responded different in this situation and the police would not have been preventing him access to the school to a better degree.
There's also the story of him leaving a gun in his car, and then of dropping ammo outside during a confrontation.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:16 pm to Bronc
quote:
Cops keep changing their stories
Yep, and I'll eat whatever crow I need to eat from this morning.
It seems like they royally fricked this up and doubtlessly cost some lives in the process. Walking around for 12 minutes shooting and no one did anything? Tazing and pepper spraying parents?
That entire department should resign.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 4:17 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:19 pm to Indefatigable
Dang, didn't know they had issues with parents.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 4:21 pm to jchamil
quote:
Once freed, Gomez moved away from the crowd, broke into a run, jumped a fence, and ran inside to rescue her children. "She sprinted out of the school with them," the Journal reports
Dayum. Go momma Gomez
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