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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157

Posted on 3/16/19 at 11:26 am to
Posted by hottub
Member since Dec 2012
3365 posts
Posted on 3/16/19 at 11:26 am to
quote:

I often wonder about how much or how little hand flying some commercial pilots have.


Most folks I fly with try to hand fly at least to FL250. Obviously, busy airspace, mechanical, etc. they will hook it up sooner so both sets of eyes and ears are focused on radio calls, traffic, checklist.
Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
73856 posts
Posted on 3/16/19 at 12:27 pm to
quote:

I often wonder about how much or how little hand flying some commercial pilots have.

personally, I do it as much as I can, we encourage all pilots, conditions permitting, to do the same
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 6:27 pm to
Boeing CEO Muilenburg Issues Statement on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Accident Investigation
quote:

Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg issued the following statement regarding the report from Ethiopian Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges today.

First and foremost, our deepest sympathies are with the families and loved ones of those onboard Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

Boeing continues to support the investigation, and is working with the authorities to evaluate new information as it becomes available. Safety is our highest priority as we design, build and support our airplanes. As part of our standard practice following any accident, we examine our aircraft design and operation, and when appropriate, institute product updates to further improve safety. While investigators continue to work to establish definitive conclusions, Boeing is finalizing its development of a previously-announced software update and pilot training revision that will address the MCAS flight control law's behavior in response to erroneous sensor inputs. We also continue to provide technical assistance at the request of and under the direction of the National Transportation Safety Board, the U.S. Accredited Representative working with Ethiopian investigators.

In accordance with international protocol, all inquiries about the ongoing accident investigation must be directed to the investigating authorities.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 6:29 pm to
Seattle Times - Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
quote:

As Boeing hustled in 2015 to catch up to Airbus and certify its new 737 MAX, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed the agency’s safety engineers to delegate safety assessments to Boeing itself, and to speedily approve the resulting analysis.

But the original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA for a new flight control system on the MAX — a report used to certify the plane as safe to fly — had several crucial flaws.
quote:

The safety analysis:

-Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.

-Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

-Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.
The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
I'd recommend reading this whole article.
This post was edited on 3/17/19 at 6:59 pm
Posted by Reservoir dawg
Member since Oct 2013
14130 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 7:08 pm to
Before the Lion Air crash, U.S. carriers flying the Max 8 were really fricking fortunate.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 9:00 pm to
I don’t understand why this retarded system is even installed on the airplane.
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
73681 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 9:07 pm to
quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.


That one's going to hurt.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 9:14 pm to
quote:

Designed to activate automatically only in the extreme flight situation of a high-speed stall, this extra kick downward of the nose would make the plane feel the same to a pilot as the older-model 737s.
Seems like the answer would be to just not enter an extreme flight situation.
Posted by dallastigers
Member since Dec 2003
5741 posts
Posted on 3/17/19 at 9:46 pm to
quote:

The original Boeing document provided to the FAA included a description specifying a limit to how much the system could move the horizontal tail — a limit of 0.6 degrees, out of a physical maximum of just less than 5 degrees of nose-down movement.

quote:

After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash, Boeing for the first time provided to airlines details about MCAS. Boeing’s bulletin to the airlines stated that the limit of MCAS’s command was 2.5 degrees.

quote:

One current FAA safety engineer said that every time the pilots on the Lion Air flight reset the switches on their control columns to pull the nose back up, MCAS would have kicked in again and “allowed new increments of 2.5 degrees.” “So once they pushed a couple of times, they were at full stop,” meaning at the full extent of the tail swivel, he said.


quote:

“A hazardous failure mode depending on a single sensor, I don’t think passes muster,” said Lemme. Like all 737s, the MAX actually has two of the sensors, one on each side of the fuselage near the cockpit. But the MCAS was designed to take a reading from only one of them...Alternatively, the system could have been designed to check that the angle-of-attack reading was accurate while the plane was taxiing on the ground before takeoff, when the angle of attack should read zero



The fix seems like it should have been there from the start - Training on it including how to disable, in manual, and using both existing sensors instead of just 1 for something that that was given unlimited authority. Lion Air AOA sensors were 20 degrees different on runway & one being off was probably not as high as a concern for them not knowing about MCAS.
quote:

According to a detailed FAA briefing to legislators, Boeing will change the MCAS software to give the system input from both angle-of-attack sensors. It will also limit how much MCAS can move the horizontal tail in response to an erroneous signal. And when activated, the system will kick in only for one cycle, rather than multiple times. Boeing also plans to update pilot training requirements and flight crew manuals to include MCAS.



This post was edited on 3/17/19 at 11:04 pm
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 9:54 am to
This article was posted in another thread yesterday; copying over to this thread.

WSJ

quote:

Federal prosecutors and Department of Transportation officials are scrutinizing the development of Boeing Co.’s [BA -2.11%] 737 MAX jetliners, according to people familiar with the matter, unusual inquiries that come amid probes of regulators’ safety approvals of the new plane.

A grand jury in Washington, D.C., issued a broad subpoena dated March 11 to at least one person involved in the 737 MAX’s development, seeking related documents, including correspondence, emails and other messages, one of these people said. The subpoena, with a prosecutor from the Justice Department’s criminal division listed as a contact, sought documents to be handed over later this month.

It wasn’t immediately clear whether the Justice Department’s probe is related to scrutiny of the Federal Aviation Administration by the DOT inspector general’s office, reported earlier Sunday by The Wall Street Journal and that focuses on a safety system that has been implicated in the Oct. 29 Lion Air crash that killed 189 people, according to a government official briefed on its status. Aviation authorities are looking into whether the anti-stall system may have played a role in last week’s Ethiopian Airlines crash, which killed all 157 people on board.
It will be interesting to see what regulatory action, if any, comes as a result of this investigation.
This post was edited on 3/18/19 at 9:54 am
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 9:59 am to
quote:

The new anti-stall system on the Boeing 737 MAX forced the nose of Lion Air JT610 down 26 times in 10 minutes before the pilots lost control and the plane dived into the sea.
Yeah, the ability for the system to reset itself every time the pilot responded should probably never have been a feature of the system.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 10:29 am to
If I’m reading it right. The system will tilt the horizontal stabilizer a few degrees each time it activated compounding the problem each time it resets.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 10:32 am to
quote:

If I’m reading it right. The system will tilt the horizontal stabilizer a few degrees each time it activated compounding the problem each time it resets.
That's what it seems like. I read a TIME article whose author interpreted it that way too. TIME

quote:

In one of the most detailed descriptions yet of the relationship between Boeing and the FAA during the 737 Max’s certification, the Seattle Times quoted unnamed engineers who said the planemaker had understated the power of the flight-control software in a System Safety Analysis submitted to the FAA. The newspaper said the analysis also failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded — in essence, gradually ratcheting the horizontal stabilizer into a dive position.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 10:42 am to
Pretty big oversite by the engineers
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35643 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 11:02 am to
quote:

But the MCAS was designed to take a reading from only one of them...Alternatively, the system could have been designed to check that the angle-of-attack reading was accurate while the plane was taxiing on the ground before takeoff, when the angle of attack should read zero


Poor.

For something that important, the sensor really should have been checked (automatically) when they were on the ground. Just a simple (sensor1 - sensor 2) and use the one that shows read zero if there was a difference.

I understand why you'd want to feed just one signal in, but for something that vital you'd want to verify that primary instrument was working properly and be able to seamlessly shift to the other if it wasn't.
Posted by When in Rome
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
35559 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 11:02 am to
BEA press release:

Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 11:08 am to
Boeing is gonna get its dick sued off
Posted by Cold Drink
Member since Mar 2016
3482 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 12:14 pm to
I think this will only get worse for Boeing, with the potential to get catastrophically worse.

From the WaPo: LINK

quote:

In October 2017, Brazilian regulators flew to Miami to test out the brand-new Boeing 737 Max 8. The team scrutinized the sleek new jetliner’s flight systems and soon published a list of over 60 operational changes, from landing systems to cockpit displays, that Brazilian pilots would need to learn.

Among the new features regulators said pilots would have to familiarize themselves with was the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, a safety system that could nose the plane downward if it sensed a potential stall.


quote:

In those same months, the Federal Aviation Administration was making its final revision to a 53-page report that would make up the backbone of Max 8 training guidelines for pilots across the United States and in almost every other country around the world.

It did not once mention the anti-stall system, according to a copy reviewed by The Post. In fact, the FAA report suggested pilots would experience nothing surprising in the cockpit of the new Max 8. In a section where FAA test pilots are supposed to list “unique handling or performance characteristics” of new planes, they remarked that there were none: “no specific flight characteristics,” the report read.

FAA’s publication of pilot training requirements for the Max 8 in the fall of 2017 was among the final steps in a multiyear approval process carried out under the agency’s now 10-year-old policy of entrusting Boeing and other aviation manufacturers to certify that their own systems comply with U.S. air safety regulations.


And here’s a good twitter thread re: Boeing’s software fix to a solution that isn’t a software problem to begin with: LINK

Again, to summarize the problem: in order to produce a “new” plane for a new marker as quickly and cheaply as possible, Boeing needed to put these big new modern engines on a 50 year-old 737 hull design they’re not compatible with. The result is a plane with poor physical design (engines too far up and front) that will push the plane’s nose too far up in certain situations, leading to a stall.

So the only way to get the thing certified is installing a computer to counter the poor physical design by automatically trimming the nose down without the pilot’s inout or knowledge when the instrument senses this situation. Problem is the instrument can sense this situation when that situation isn’t occurring, making the plane crash itself while the pilots are pulling up on the yoke with all their might (and this is another topic on its own: how the hell did Boeing approve a computer that set can trim so extreme as to negate and overpower all other input from the pilot?!?!)

But here’s the other deal: once you start limiting the MCAS activation, now you risk increasing the probability of the original problem it was meant to solve (nose too high/stalling)

My original point remains: this plane never should have been built. Pilots (and passengers) shouldn’t have to rely on software and sensors (especiallly non-redundant) to fix a problem inherent in the plane’s physical design, especially when that physical design flaw is due to stretching the limits of a hull design too far.

I fly a lot and have no fear of it, but I won’t be flying on a Max any time soon, if ever.
This post was edited on 3/18/19 at 12:22 pm
Posted by Cold Drink
Member since Mar 2016
3482 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 12:17 pm to
Also the FAA approval process sounds like it was fricked. I bet other countries won’t so readily accept the FAA’s certificate of approval this time.

And it gets worse, yeah? Didn’t Boeing also just introduce a new 777? Are other counties/agencies/lawsuits going to look into that process too? Even if everything with that one was above board, there’s a confidence/perception problem.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/18/19 at 12:33 pm to
quote:

But here’s the other deal: once you start limiting the MCAS activation, now you risk increasing the probability of the original problem it was meant to solve (nose too high/stalling)
Not really. They’ll fix it. The way I read it the MCAS tilted the horizontal stabilizer 2.5 deg nose down. Once the pilots recovered the MCAS rearmed itself but didn’t reset the stabilizers back to neutral. So each time the plane neared a critical AOA the stabilizers moved another 2.5 deg eventually creating an unrecoverable nose down attitude unless the system was completely shut off.
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