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Message
1
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:23 pm to LSUBoo
quote:
Interesting that the article leads with the "650 Babies" headline then details several adults who competently decided to end their lives, and not once went into any details about any of these babies. And in the second link, one of the conditions is that the parents must give consent. So, still not the doctors deciding, only allowing. It just made me appreciate the Netherlands even more
Reading all that made you appreciate the Netherlands more? They're killing freaking babies. But in your mind it's alright because the parents said it's OK?
I don't mean this as an insult but if you really feel this way you've got to be the most morally bankrupt person I've ever encountered on here. I'm talking morally bankrupt on a level with people like Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele. Holy shite.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:23 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Who are you to say if she made the right decision or not?
I'm saying no such thing. I can see both sides of the argument, and valid points on each. Which is why I never at any time made any statement about the decision being right or wrong.
quote:
All I'm saying is there's a silver lining that she may have found peace at the end.
Ummm...No. You might have intended that as your point. Let me remind you of what you actually said, word for word.
quote:
I'd imagine her sex abuse was much worse for them to endure than this. At least you can ration that she has reached some sort of peace. Can't think of any positives from a rape.
What you actually SAID is that you imagine her rape was MUCH WORSE than her death (as far as the family enduring.) Then, you SAID you can't think of ANYTHING POSITIVE from a rape.
That's a far cry from what you intended to say if you're being truthful. Again, if you meant what you originally said, I'm being honest, people like you scare me to death.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:24 pm to airfernando
? What's wrong with it? It could even be fun. She probably had more peace after making the decision than in her entire existence.
This post was edited on 5/11/16 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:29 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Reading all that made you appreciate the Netherlands more? They're killing freaking babies. But in your mind it's alright because the parents said it's OK?
I think you're really oversimplifying things for the sake of an emotional response.
The parents' consent part just refutes your comparison to the Nazis, because again it's not doctors just making decisions to kill people.
Now, personally I agree with the overall goal of their laws in this case, but it's not just because the parents said it's OK. That's only one factor.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:31 pm to terd ferguson
quote:
why shouldn't nutcases be allowed to legally kill themselves?
I get your point, but that's kind of a douchebag comment.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:34 pm to Snipe
Her suicidal tendencies were symptoms of her mental illness - this should never be a medical option, and whenever someone kills themself because of a mental illness it is a tragedy.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:38 pm to LSUBoo
quote:
I think you're really oversimplifying things for the sake of an emotional response. The parents' consent part just refutes your comparison to the Nazis, because again it's not doctors just making decisions to kill people. Now, personally I agree with the overall goal of their laws in this case, but it's not just because the parents said it's OK. That's only one factor.
I'm still shocked that the addition of parental consent to kill a baby makes it OK in your eyes. How does that make it any better? It's still the state saying it is perfectly legal to kill an innocent person, a freaking baby who cannot speak for themselves in this instance. How is that ever acceptable?
And I thought those in favor of euthanasia in this thread used the argument that it's their choice as one of the cornerstones of their support for this program? Well, I've just proven that this program can be administered without patient consent or even the ability to comprehend what's happening to them. And yet you not only defend this program, you praise it? You honestly don't see how fricked up this is?
This post was edited on 5/11/16 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:47 pm to CadesCove
quote:
All these compassionate libs sure do put a low estimate on the value of life.
quote:All these "small government" conservatives sure do want a lot of control over the lives of others.
Had a tough day and want to kill yourself?
Check.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:48 pm to Mizzoufan26
quote:
Not because I am offended, you just seem really stupid.
Think about all those mailorder brides and sex workers around the world. Are you telling me one's happiness is not up for barter?
Comical
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:48 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I'm still shocked that the addition of parental consent to kill a baby makes it OK in your eyes.
I never said that. What it does is refute your Nazi doctor death panel argument.
quote:
How does that make it any better? It's still the state saying it is perfectly legal to kill an innocent person, a freaking baby who cannot speak for themselves in this instance. How is that ever acceptable?
It makes it better because it takes the decision out of the hands of the doctors or any one individual. It takes multiple levels of consent and agreement and professional opinion that it's an individual case that cannot improve.
Is it really acceptable to allow a baby to suffer endlessly with no hope at improvement? I don't think it is. I think that's cruel.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:55 pm to LSUBoo
quote:
I never said that. What it does is refute your Nazi doctor death panel argument.
No it doesn't. Not at all. The only difference is the Nazis required three doctors to agree. The Dutch require two doctors and parents to agree. The end result is the same, the legal murder of an innocent person. The procedures are slightly different, but the goals and outcome are the same between the Dutch program and the Nazi program.
quote:
It makes it better because it takes the decision out of the hands of the doctors or any one individual. It takes multiple levels of consent and agreement and professional opinion that it's an individual case that cannot improve.
Is it really acceptable to allow a baby to suffer endlessly with no hope at improvement? I don't think it is. I think that's cruel.
Congratulations. You just used the exact same excuse to justify the Dutch euthanasia program as the Nazis used to justify theirs.
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 5/11/16 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 5/11/16 at 2:57 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I've just proven that this program can be administered without patient consent or even the ability to comprehend what's happening to them.
The Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act, the one that permitted the woman referenced in the OP to elect suicide, does not apply to infants nor anyone else incapable of making a voluntary request.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:02 pm to Speedy G
quote:
The Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act, the one that permitted the woman referenced in the OP to elect suicide, does not apply to infants nor anyone else incapable of making a voluntary request.
From the Government of Netherlands own website....
quote:
Euthanasia and newborn infants
Children are occasionally born with such serious disorders that termination of life is regarded as the best option
The law permits physicians to terminate the lives of newborn infants and to perform late-term abortion only on condition that they fulfil the following due care criteria:
In the light of prevailing medical opinion, the child’s suffering must be unbearable and with no prospect of improvement. This means that the decision to discontinue treatment is justified. There must be no doubt about the diagnosis and prognosis;
Both the physician and the parents must be convinced that there is no reasonable alternative solution given the child’s situation;
The parents must have given their consent for the termination of life;
The parents must have been fully informed of the diagnosis and prognosis;
At least one other, independent physician must have examined the child and given a written opinion on compliance with the due care criteria listed above
The termination must be performed with all due care
All that's needed is two doctors and the parents to agree and any newborn child in the Netherlands can legally be killed.
LINK
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:02 pm to Speedy G
Can I have my legs and arms cut off and then claim disability?
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:03 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
The only difference is the Nazis required three doctors to agree. The Dutch require two doctors and parents to agree.
That's a pretty significant difference, don't you think? I certainly think the parent(s)' opinion is vital to this process, and a parent should want what's best for their child, even if that means ending the suffering.
And don't forget the bit in their law that states this:
quote:
In the light of prevailing medical opinion, the child’s suffering must be unbearable and with no prospect of improvement. This means that the decision to discontinue treatment is justified. There must be no doubt about the diagnosis and prognosis;
Obviously if they circumvent the laws, then that's not acceptable. No one is advocating for killing babies just because they aren't wanted or weren't born with blond hair and blue eyes.
I can't YouTube at work, so let's just hope the Dutch don't go as overboard as the Nazis. I have a good feeling that they won't.
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:05 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
the child’s suffering must be unbearable and with no prospect of improvement
quote:
All that's needed is two doctors and the parents to agree and any newborn child in the Netherlands can legally be killed
Quite a logic leap.
These two mean no where near the same thing.
This post was edited on 5/11/16 at 3:06 pm
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:05 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
From the Government of Netherlands own website....
Is that part of the Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act? No?
Was the woman in this thread an infant? No?
Are you capable of making a distinction between 20+ year olds and newborns/unborns?
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:10 pm to Speedy G
quote:
Is that part of the Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act? No? Was the woman in this thread an infant? No? Are you capable of making a distinction between 20+ year olds and newborns/unborns?
The point of all that was there's been many in here claiming the euthanasia program in the Netherlands is strictly voluntary and for adults. Well, that's not true. It proves that in the Netherlands there is already legal procedures for killing people who have not and cannot request that they be killed.
And I notice that you don't seem bothered by this. Instead you're trying to make some moral distinction between a mentally unstable 20something and a newborn. Why is that? Why does it not bother you that they are legally killing innocent people?
Posted on 5/11/16 at 3:10 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
All that's needed is two doctors and the parents to agree and any newborn child in the Netherlands can legally be killed.
That's 3 people that have to agree...it's not like they are just walking around killing people for fun or because the baby isn't cute.
quote:
the child’s suffering must be unbearable and with no prospect of improvement.
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