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re: Sign and trade cousins for derozan

Posted on 5/17/18 at 3:15 pm to
Posted by BengalShark
Member since Jul 2017
3212 posts
Posted on 5/17/18 at 3:15 pm to
quote:

Sign and trade cousins for derozan




Gtfo
Posted by NOLAbaby
CumTown
Member since Sep 2013
1758 posts
Posted on 5/18/18 at 3:25 am to
Guys I would S&T Cousins for: Paul George, Kawhi /thread
Posted by irvchilichill1
Lafayette
Member since Jan 2009
720 posts
Posted on 5/20/18 at 5:44 pm to
I'm not a fan of the proposed trade of Boogie for Derozan.
Potential closing lineup of Rondo, Jrue, Derozan, Mirotic, AD, doesn't have consistent space and shooting prowess. Also, outside of Rondo, not much in terms of sheer toughness and causing the opposition to be "fearful" of a particular player's antics/prospective reactions (i.e. Boogie, Draymond, Marcus Smart, Zaza, etc.)

I'm a firm believer that great teams have a antagonizer and/or a player who's toughness/hard play is viewed as "dirty." However, alot of times dirty/physical defense gets confused and embellished, especially in this "space and pace" era.

Case in point, in game 2 against Warriors, when Draymond was talking shite and "motivating" his teammates, I knew it was over (besides the absurd free throw disparity), bc we didn't have Boogie to go back at Draymond and attempt to stop all that boasting he was doing. Warriors team picked up on our lack of "response" and knew we wouldn't get physical or muck up their rythym.

I am eager to see Boogie back on the team with a tall (6'7-'8)defensive-minded, peremiter player (Durant killer, no such thing) free agent signing/traded player, which will allow us to likely be the only team, besides a healthy Celtics squad, with a reasonable expectation of consistently playing elite defense against the best offensive team in the history of the NBA.

As I have repeatedly stated, the key to beating the Warriors,in a playoff series, is not trying match offensive firepower (Houston), rather it's a team with elite peremiter defense (Steph, Klay) and the ability to have a defensive scheme where you have a rangy, elite defender, along with sound help from the other players (outside of those guarding Steph/Klay), where you force Durant to pass or make him take extremely contested shots and hope he misses at least half of those shots.

In a perfect world, Solo would be this rangy, Durant defender and it's unfortunate that he wasn't healthy enough and/or played the whole year to have what it demands, if your realistically trying to slow Durant down. However, I'm not convinced Solo, even healthy, is that answer.

I'm convinced the Pels off-season moves will center around resigning Boogie to a "fair" contract, bringing Rondo back and attempting to trade Solo, 1st round pick, and whatever else it may dictate to get a quality, peremiter wing with the stated goal of defending Durant better than this year's showing. Accordingly, this allows you to put Jrue back to guarding Steph down the stretch and attempting to have the Warriors "out of rhythm" and miss a few shots they usually/expect to make in key late-game situations.

U need a Dennis Rodman type defender to guard Durant, period. Must do the dirty work before Durant even gets the ball or before he finds his shooting rhythm or it's over. Rodman was a master defender of getting a star player out of his comfort zone, whether by antics/"dirty play" and forcing that player to doubt his abilities that night and/or feel that Rodman was "suffocating" him with defensive intensity.

With that said, yes, I know there are no "Rodman" type defenders readily available, but it is a must for Dell to identify this type of defender and attempt to reasonably do what is necessary to secure said player. Would have been nice, in hindsight, to have Aminu on this Pels version bc he is probably the prototype player, from a physical standpoint, outside of Giannis, to have a chance at successfully guarding Durant over the course of a 7 game series. Conversely, two reasonable moves that may be attained this summer, depending on what happens with P.George in OKC, is to trade Solo for Andre Roberson and hope that makes a difference, from a defensive standpoint.

Also, if Bron would sign with the Sixers, that may mean Robert Convington would then be available. If so, I say the Pels sell the farm to gain Covington in a trade. Solo/Moore, Diallo and a 1st, maybe even another 1st (top 10 protected), might be enough to secure that missing piece for the Pels to be a sure-fire championship contender.

A lineup of Rondo, Jrue, Convington, AD and Boogie, might be the best the league has to offer at defending the Warriors and securing a championship in the next 2-3 year's.

A bit of a long read but I'm pretty sure, not many would argue with the logic articulated.

Posted by QJenk
Atl, Ga
Member since Jan 2013
15317 posts
Posted on 5/20/18 at 6:58 pm to
I like Derozan and his playmaking abilities. I respect him.

I just want no part of him in the playoffs though. He chokes, everytime.

No deal.
Posted by Colonel Flagg
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2010
22805 posts
Posted on 5/20/18 at 8:10 pm to
quote:

A lineup of Rondo, Jrue, Convington, AD and Boogie, might be the best the league has to offer at defending the Warriors and securing a championship in the next 2-3 year's.


The Celtics have built a team to compete once they are healthy.

Irving
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Horford

Plus they have a bench, their own picks, and future 1st from other teams. I think that team could be a handful for the Warriors as their best bench players and Iggy are getting older.

I think the Pels can compete with them with a SF upgrade, a Cousins relatively close to what he was and keep some of their better bench players.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 8:59 am to
quote:

f Bron would sign with the Sixers, that may mean Robert Convington would then be available


seen this a lot here. why would they trade him?


quote:

lineup of Rondo, Jrue, Convington, AD and Boogie, might be the best the league has to offer at defending the Warriors


it would be an interesting series and pose some legit problems for the Warriors, but Cousins's defense would kill the Pels. he couldnt play in space before his injury, doubt he will even be at that level again.

Celtics, as mentioned above, have the type of 2 way guys to push GS. and the Sixers are getting there too. if they get one of the big wings this summer, watch out.
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
25631 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 9:09 am to
quote:

it would be an interesting series and pose some legit problems for the Warriors, but Cousins's defense would kill the Pels. he couldnt play in space before his injury, doubt he will even be at that level again.


Probably, but they always knew that when they got him. The point of getting him was to make the other teams have to play a bigger lineup. the Warriors cannot play a lineup of Steph/Klay/Iggy/Durant/Draymond against AD/Cousins. As long as AD and Cousins are on the court, one of the big dummies on their team has to be in the game, which disrupts their flow and spacing on offense having someone like Zaza out there.
If that happens, then they have 2 guys on the court that you absolutely do not care about shooting the ball, one of which isn't a threat to do anything with the ball unlike a passer like Green/Iggy, which makes it a lot easier to play help defense and recover back to the shooters. As long as AD is roaming around the paint, they aren't attacking the rim, and you could see that as the series went on. Unless they were positive AD wasn't getting to them, they were dribbling back out and looking for something else b/c no one was going to challenge AD after game 2, and the times they did, AD usually won. The Warriors knew it was pointless to challenge AD, so they patiently waited until they got a better shot, even if that meant dribbling back out of the paint after getting by their man.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 9:48 am to
quote:

the Warriors cannot play a lineup of Steph/Klay/Iggy/Durant/Draymond against AD/Cousins


They can and would certainly roll out the Hamptons 5 v that pair for stretches.

and when Cousins is the lone big, the Pels would be in trouble.

quote:

flow and spacing on offense having someone like Zaza out there.


They have the big set ball screens for Curry or Durant and force Cousins into spots where he is going to get killed. They run Thompson/Curry off pin downs...Cousins isn't going to be able to switch off to stop them from getting clean looks with all their off ball action

There's a reason slower bigs disappear every single year in the playoffs. They are too easy to target defensively. Cousins, for all his gifts, is no different than other less mobile bigs
This post was edited on 5/21/18 at 9:49 am
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
61518 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 10:05 am to
If beating the Warriors at full strength and trying is your aim, that's as delusional as a 90's team thinking they could take the Jordan Bulls. Especially if guys like Klay and Draymond realize take less to stay in roles perfect for them.

The goal should be to get good enough to take advantage of any opportunities that come your way like the Jordan baseball years.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 1:21 pm to
I agree. Beating them is a long shot; doesn't mean the Pels should fold up.

No shame in bringing back Cousins and going for it with him. But if the conversation is about a potential Warriors matchup, I'm going to be somewhat realistic about how that might play out.
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
25631 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 2:42 pm to
quote:

They can and would certainly roll out the Hamptons 5 v that pair for stretches.


oh i know they would, and it would be up to Cousins to destroy Draymond every time down the court and make them change. If he doens't do that, then they have no reason to change. Cousins isn't Capela, or DJ, or Gobert, or Adams, or Nurkic. Maybe when Towns gets more mature he could be an unstoppable force against Draymond. None of those guys require a special big defender to stop them from scoring. Draymond can hold his own with all of them. What should happen in a real game reffed by competent refs, Draymond would be either be in foul trouble in no time, or get scored on constantly by Cousins in the post. We know Cousins can pass the ball, it's merely him seeing the game and knowing what he as to do to succeed. I know Rondo gets left open and people complain about that, but here's his playoff stats:

3P% when wide open (Defender > 6'+) 47% (shot just under 2 a game in this scenario)
He shot 42% from 3 for the playoffs, taking 2 a game, so basically every 3 he took was wide arse open. Wasnt' that small of a sample size being 9 games.

If Rondo can be playoff Rondo, you have Jrue, AD out there, and find a competent SF that can shoot, hell just having Miller out there hitting like we know he can, the Warriors without a big to slow down Cousins can't stop that, assuming Cousins is playing under control, which may be a big assumption, but that's the vision we all had when we acquired him.



quote:

and when Cousins is the lone big, the Pels would be in trouble.


I agree.

quote:

There's a reason slower bigs disappear every single year in the playoffs. They are too easy to target defensively. Cousins, for all his gifts, is no different than other less mobile bigs


I agree there too, but it's not often those slow bigs have the best shot blocker in the league to play with to patrol the paint. If the Warriors want to let Steph play one on one with Cousins all game, then that's an easy way to get them out of their offense. If he wants to hit 10 3's from 5 feet behind the line in Cousins face, then fine, we lose, oh well.

You can't stop the Warriors. All you can do is try to force them into tough shots and hope they miss. I had no problem with Jrue's defense on Durant. If he wants to take jumpers all day with a hand in his face, then so be it. He does that if the guy guarding him is 6'4" or 6'8". You simply make him work for it and hope he shoots a low percentage. If he's on, or Klay is on, they are extremely difficult to beat, and there really isn't anything anyone can do about that. Both of them take contested shots all game. The reason they kill teams is because they start shooting well, and then start passing well and start getting layups. Let them shoot. If they beat you, they beat you. Make them shoot 50% from the field taking jumpers all day. just don't give them the points in the paint. that might not work at Oracle, but it's probably a good recipe in the Smoothie King.


The point of all my rambling is Cousins has to force them to play a big, and if they do, it increases your chances to force them into tough jumpshots on their end of the floor. Really wish we could have seen what we looked like with him against them in the playoffs and how much he could influence how the games were played. If his offense can outweigh his defense, making them play a slow big to defend him, then it really changes their offensive philosophy and makes them becomes more one on one than the team whipping the ball around getting 30 assists a game.
Posted by NOLALGD
Member since May 2014
2235 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 3:59 pm to
quote:

I agree there too, but it's not often those slow bigs have the best shot blocker in the league to play with to patrol the paint. If the Warriors want to let Steph play one on one with Cousins all game, then that's an easy way to get them out of their offense. If he wants to hit 10 3's from 5 feet behind the line in Cousins face, then fine, we lose, oh well.


This is a really good assessment. If Curry gets hot like his 3rd quarter last night you are probably losing no matter what you do. But he can't, and frankly doesn't do that every game, and neither does Durant. You have to make them take contested long shots and live with that. You might still lose but if you give up open shots and layups you will definitely lose.

The other big part of playing GS is mental toughness. When they get rolling those long 3s feel like 6 point shots. Its hard to stay focused when they hit shots while you are playing great defense. You have to be (mentally) tough enough to not let their shots affect your defense, and even more important, to not let their runs cause you to stop playing your offense.

I'm hoping this playoffs helps to make the Pels mentally tougher moving forward, especially when playing GS.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 6:17 pm to
excellent points all around

Davis as a rover, like we saw this year, would help. tbh, i thought the Pels played defense about as well as could be expected given the rosters. i dont believe adding Cousins would make it as good. but if he does indeed juice the offense, then maybe it can just be good enough?


i do think trying to beat GS in a track meet is a tough ask. i get that that is who the Pels were post injury and they were successful, but GS thrives on that chaos and will be better at it. so maybe having Cousins slows the game down some from the absurd pace we saw at times.

quote:

If the Warriors want to let Steph play one on one with Cousins all game, then that's an easy way to get them out of their offense. If he wants to hit 10 3's from 5 feet behind the line in Cousins face, then fine, we lose, oh well.


it's interesting b/c the Pels actually were sort of taking that bet and not hedging or blitzing Curry PnRs most of the time. i think it shocked Curry to get looks he hasnt seen in about 4 years.
Posted by TigerBait2008
Boulder,CO
Member since Jun 2008
32446 posts
Posted on 5/21/18 at 11:25 pm to
No just no..
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