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Message
re: ScoopB: All of the Brandon Ingram offers are “crap”
Posted on 7/12/24 at 10:51 am to Pels_Yaz
Posted on 7/12/24 at 10:51 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Jrue has a higher career assists avg than Dejounte. Dejounte also had several 40 plus scoring games too. I love Dejounte but he’s not this Chris Paul like point guard. And in all honesty in todays nba you dont need one.
Jrue is also (7) years older. Jrue has also never had a season like Murray had his last year in SAS. That is the Murray we traded for and the way we will use his abilities.
He very well could be our "Chris Paul" PG averaging 20pts/ 9ast/ 4reb.
When is the last time we've had a PG that we can be confident to have 8-10 assists per game???
Exactly the answer is CP3 and that's it.
2
Posted on 7/12/24 at 10:54 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
That makes zero sense. They aren't the same type of player. BI isn't a role player like Trey is. You can argue that our staring lineup would be better with a player like Trey over BI, but saying you want BI to play like Trey is silly.
But a lot of arguments of keeping BI is based on this. I completely agree with you its silly. But catch and shoot 3s, off ball movement- this isn’t BI. Hes a ball dominant scoring wing. I feel if he does stay he has to drastically change his game which is possible but not likely.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:00 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
That makes zero sense. They aren't the same type of player.
BI isn't a role player like Trey is.
You can argue that our staring lineup would be better with a player like Trey over BI, but saying you want BI to play like Trey is silly.
Bro the obvious point is taking 3pt shots and not being a ball stopper.
That IS exactly what we want from BI lol. I didn't say Trey can do all the things BI can do. I said we want BI to play like Trey with all the extra skills BI has.
quote:
That makes zero sense. They aren't the same type of player.
BI isn't a role player like Trey is.
Ok yes no one is arguing Trey right now is better than BI. You do realize that even though Trey is a "role player" and BI isn't that this is all a future conversation about Trey getting better?
So far it seems you just do not have a very high ceiling for Trey.
Which you have to be able to acknowledge if you continue to make arguments for Herb/ BI all while knowing they too could struggle or have their own issues this year. Or that Trey could also have a really great year.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:00 am to Dantheman504
quote:
Jrue is also (7) years older. Jrue has also never had a season like Murray had his last year in SAS. That is the Murray we traded for and the way we will use his abilities.
That is Murray you hope we got. With the Spurs that year he was the only intiator or creator. That isn’t the case here at all. He’ll get his assists but hes not this Haliburton or CP3 type player. And honestly I’m fine with that but hes not a Chris Paul like player.
In 2018-19, Jrue averaged 21 points, 7.7 assists and 5 boards. Plus he was our best defensive player. People really forget how good Jrue was.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:09 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
In 2018-19, Jrue averaged 21 points, 7.7 assists and 5 boards. Plus he was our best defensive player. People really forget how good Jrue was.
I'm not forgetting how good he is. I'm acknowledging that we asked Jrue to do alot in that time frame just like CJ. Yes Jrue was very good at PG for what we needed and as a whole.
I understand but Murray averaged 21pts/ 8reb/9ast without a Zion/ CJ in 21-22.
Not forgetting how good Jrue was, just definitely able to see how good Murray is lol.
Murray's best year was better than Jrue's best year. And Murray's best year is way more recent. Many would say the only reason he took any step back is because of the fit with Trey.
In perspective: Jrue's absolute peak stats is comparable to Murray's last (3) years while 7 years younger with the (1st of those 3 years blowing the rest out the water).
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:14 am to Dantheman504
quote:
In perspective: Jrue's absolute peak stats is comparable to Murray's last (3) years while 7 years younger with the (1st of those 3 years blowing the rest out the water).
What my point is that Dejounte is more Jrue than CP3. Which isn’t a bad thing at all. I do think Jrue is better on defense while Dejounte has more offensive ability. But to me thats a better comparison than saying Dejounte will come in and become CP3 for us.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:22 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
What my point is that Dejounte is more Jrue than CP3. Which isn’t a bad thing at all. I do think Jrue is better on defense while Dejounte has more offensive ability. But to me thats a better comparison than saying Dejounte will come in and become CP3 for us
The important thing is that we finally have a PG that can be compared to CP3 or Jrue lol.
You could say:
Defense: 1. Tie
Offense: 1. Murray/ CP3 3. Jrue
Assists: 1. CP3 2. Murray 3. Jrue
Rebounds : 1. Murray 2. CP3 3. Jrue
The only reason Murray shouldn't have a CP3 type impact is because our team isn't shite now and he just won't need to put up the production. The "impact" should 100% be there.
This post was edited on 7/12/24 at 11:26 am
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:25 am to ghost2most
quote:
False.
Zion
Murray
Herb
BI
I don't know about Herb being a "better" player than BI, but he's more important to this team as currently constructed.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:26 am to Dantheman504
quote:
When is the last time we've had a PG that we can be confident to have 8-10 assists per game???
Rondo in 17-18
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:28 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
Rondo in 17-18
Yeah you got me. I added him in after I thought about it. I'm still not going to count that because it was always a short term, all or nothing rental.
Really sucks Cousins went down that year.
This also supports the Jrue convo above. Rondo was brought in to be the true PG because Jrue technically isn't..
This post was edited on 7/12/24 at 11:32 am
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:33 am to Dantheman504
quote:
So far it seems you just do not have a very high ceiling for Trey.
Not true at all. I'd rather Trey than OG, even if OG wasn't maxed out.
We talked about it before though. Would you rather a guy who's 20-25 best in the league as a scorer/creator, or would you rather a top 5*10 role playing 3&D guy?
I think that's roster dependent, but if Murray can handle the load of scoring and creating that we expected from BI, and Zion gets better in the clutch and as a player in general, then I 100% would rather Trey as a starter than BI.
And that's a decision that needs to be made soon. We are in a fortunate position that we have too many good players on high salaries, or about to be with Trey, so losing one of them or even two and not getting awesome returns is not that big of a deal. Yes i'd like to get back an all-star for BI, but unless it's a center, where the hell are they going to play if your plan is to start Trey?
quote:
Bro the obvious point is taking 3pt shots and not being a ball stopper.
I"m not as concerned about that. If he took 5 3's a game AND got to the rim more than he did this past year, that's a big win. If he takes 7 3's a game and gets the rim 10% of the time, that's not a good thing. To me the balance needs to be that he's taking more 3's and rim attempts compared to mid range shots, especially the bad mid range shots from 16'+.
He's taken less than 15% of his shots the last 4 years at the rim. That needs to change just as much as shooting more 3's needs to change. That number needs to be at 25%. Taking 46% of his shots from 10'-3P is way too much. He was efficient from 10-16', and i'm ok with that shot being something he takes 28% of the time, as long as the vast majority of the other 72% is coming from 3's and rim attempts.
I don't care which one he takes more of, 3's or rim attempts, but those two need to be at 60%. That's where they were when he was an allstar. The last 3 years it's been under 40%.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:46 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
He's taken less than 15% of his shots the last 4 years at the rim. That needs to change just as much as shooting more 3's needs to change. That number needs to be at 25%. Taking 46% of his shots from 10'-3P is way too much. He was efficient from 10-16', and i'm ok with that shot being something he takes 28% of the time, as long as the vast majority of the other 72% is coming from 3's and rim attempts.
I don't care which one he takes more of, 3's or rim attempts, but those two need to be at 60%. That's where they were when he was an allstar. The last 3 years it's been under 40%.
I don't disagree with any of this. Essentially get Trey to continue hitting the 3 and turn into a more aggressive BI.
My point is that I see the path for Trey to do this just as easily as you see a path for Herb to continue to be an elite defender AND get better on offense.
Point being I don't view Herb higher than Trey but as equals. Especially because they have completely different roles/ impact. That doesn't change until the season starts. Its not because I doubt Herb but because I don't doubt Trey.
That's where the high ceiling comment comes from.
Because Herb is a great defender on a TERRIBLE defensive team it made it easier for his "role" to be effective. Obviously his offense getting better keeps that role secured.
Trey very well could be better if we:
1. Had a PG
2. Didn't have BI in his way
3. Don't have to rely on emergency 3's and can actually scheme for Trey.
You have to acknowledge that there are clear advantages and disadvantages to Trey/ Herb and how they have played.
We have been able to very easily maximize Herb. We have not begun to maximize Trey and that wont start until BI is gone.
Not saying that Herb hasn't taken full advantage of every opportunity and doesnt deserve to start but I'm not ruling out that Trey steps up, Herb takes a slight step back on offense, Murray is a savage, and Herb ends up coming off the bench.
We don't know. Herb shooting a high % from 3 is just as up in the air as Trey's defensive improvents. The only difference is that we actually have the type of team to get the best out of Trey now and find out.
This post was edited on 7/12/24 at 11:51 am
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:55 am to Dantheman504
quote:
Point being I don't view Herb higher than Trey but as equals. Especially because they have completely different roles/ impact. That doesn't change until the season starts. Its not because I doubt Herb but because I don't doubt Trey.
100% agree. They are two perfect elite role players to put into any starting lineup.
Like i said, if Murray can be the scorer/creator, and more importantly the closer we needed BI to be, then a Murray/Herb/Trey/Zion lineup is better than Murray/Herb/BI/Zion lineup. ANd that doesn't mean Trey is a better basketball player than BI, just that the fit with that roster is better.
Herb fits on every single team in the league, and would start for every single team in the league, except maybe the Celtics but that's more b/c they already have 2 Herbs on their team outside of their two scorer/creators in Jrue and White.
Under no circumstance is Herb coming off the bench. His gravity doesn't change if he shoots 36% from 3 or 42% from 3.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 11:59 am to Dantheman504
What has Trey's role been? Get in the game and shoot immediately as a 1st option? Its not like we are scheming for him or had the lineups to do.
Herb has had a clear role every single night and is lucky to have 0 pressure as the 4-5th scoring option. Its why he gets extra "props" for good shooting nights because he we actually have low expectations.
So essentially we have low expectations for a guy in a defined roll.
And we have high expectations for a guy in a non defined roll but also as a #1 option.
Its quite easy to see who should automatically show more improvement regardless of taking advantage of those roles.
We talk about Herb's 3pt shot but its a shot that was greatly uncontested.... While Trey is getting guarded at 35'.
So yeah the game has come easier for Herb. Him taking advantage of all of it is just icing on the cake.
Herb has had a clear role every single night and is lucky to have 0 pressure as the 4-5th scoring option. Its why he gets extra "props" for good shooting nights because he we actually have low expectations.
So essentially we have low expectations for a guy in a defined roll.
And we have high expectations for a guy in a non defined roll but also as a #1 option.
Its quite easy to see who should automatically show more improvement regardless of taking advantage of those roles.
We talk about Herb's 3pt shot but its a shot that was greatly uncontested.... While Trey is getting guarded at 35'.
So yeah the game has come easier for Herb. Him taking advantage of all of it is just icing on the cake.
This post was edited on 7/12/24 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 7/12/24 at 12:37 pm to TeddyPadillac
Zion, Dejounte, Ingram, and CJ in a lineup doesn’t work. There are two things that I haven’t seen you address in your support of this bizarro lineup.
1. Ingram does nothing to make Zion’s life easier. He can’t run ball screen actions with him, he does not move off of the ball, and he doesn’t space the court. We need what Trey brings in that lineup. We need the spacing and shooting. Trey can easily be an equal defender to Ingram and he is a better rebounder. We simply don’t need Ingram’s isolation creation with Zion and Dejounte on the roster. It becomes really clunky really quickly.
2. Ingram’s “best year was with a pg” that you keep referencing was 5 years ago and features minimal Zion. Let’s look at recent trends, Ingram proved to be unplayable on Team USA in a similar role as a spacer with wide open looks off ball, then he absolutely refused to shoot 3’s last season. He has been trending in the wrong direction for what we need around Zion for 4 years now.
1. Ingram does nothing to make Zion’s life easier. He can’t run ball screen actions with him, he does not move off of the ball, and he doesn’t space the court. We need what Trey brings in that lineup. We need the spacing and shooting. Trey can easily be an equal defender to Ingram and he is a better rebounder. We simply don’t need Ingram’s isolation creation with Zion and Dejounte on the roster. It becomes really clunky really quickly.
2. Ingram’s “best year was with a pg” that you keep referencing was 5 years ago and features minimal Zion. Let’s look at recent trends, Ingram proved to be unplayable on Team USA in a similar role as a spacer with wide open looks off ball, then he absolutely refused to shoot 3’s last season. He has been trending in the wrong direction for what we need around Zion for 4 years now.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:00 pm to partywiththelombardi
quote:
I'd be ok losing Ingram for free if Flagg was our consolation prize
Flagg won't even be remotely possible to attain. How do you expect to pick #1 in the draft next year?
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:21 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Zion, Dejounte, Ingram, and CJ in a lineup doesn’t work. There are two things that I haven’t seen you address in your support of this bizarro lineup.
At no point have i said i want to see that lineup. That's a lineup that is expensive and that ask's two of those guys to not play to their maximum potential.
Having too many scorers isnt' a good thing. When you have 4 guys that should average 20+ a night, 1 of them is going to have a 10 point night and another 15, not to mention Trey should be scoring 15+. CJ/BI/Murray/Zion/Trey can't really be on the same team. There's not enough shots for all of them. That's 5 guys that could easily average 20 points, and do it efficiently. Having Trey score 12 a night is pointless. You might as well get Alex Caruso to play in his place if he's only going to take 8 shots a game.
quote:
Ingram does nothing to make Zion’s life easier. He can’t run ball screen actions with him, he does not move off of the ball, and he doesn’t space the court
Why does BI have to run ball screens with Zion if he's not that good at it? How about we do what BI does really well, the thing that he was in the top 12% in the league at doing this past year, dribble handoffs. Put the ball in Zion's hands and let BI take the handoff, much like what the entire Kings offense revolves around with Sabonis holding the ball and handing it off to Fox or Huerter.
BI, Trey, and CJ would all excel in that type of action, and i'm sure Murray would as well.
quote:
e need what Trey brings in that lineup. We need the spacing and shooting. Trey can easily be an equal defender to Ingram and he is a better rebounder. We simply don’t need Ingram’s isolation creation with Zion and Dejounte on the roster. It becomes really clunky really quickly.
I agree, and i said that. But it doesn't look like BI is going anywhere at the moment, so he's going to start.
quote:
Ingram’s “best year was with a pg” that you keep referencing was 5 years ago and features minimal Zion.
I haven't referenced that at all b/c I don't think Lonzo was a halfcourt PG. What i referenced was his specific stats off screens and off dribble handoffs this past year being elite, which it was, and shows that he can be an efficient scorer off the ball. I also referenced that his best +/- 2 man lineup was Jose the last two years, by a pretty big margin too.
All signs point to BI being a more efficient scorer off the ball.
quote:
He has been trending in the wrong direction for what we need around Zion for 4 years now.
I don't deny his shot selection is trending the wrong way. I showed you those stats and where i'd like them to be.
These two have played 55 games together this year, 12 last year, and 0 the year before. Their sample size together is pretty small.
They were 33-22 together this year, and half of that was with a fat out of shape Zion, with one of the harder schedules in the league. That was a 49 win rate team.
Sure would have been nice to see them both in a playoff series together, healthy.
We have 5 guys right now that need to start and only 3 positions available for them. CJ is the one that is the glaring weak spot in a small ball lineup, the lineup i'd like to see us utilize and close with, Murray/Herb/BI/Trey/Zion.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:33 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Zion, Dejounte, Ingram, and CJ in a lineup doesn’t work.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiii
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:40 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Zion, Dejounte, Ingram, and CJ in a lineup doesn’t work.
One of the best 4 man groups in the nba.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 7:37 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
The important thing is that we finally have a PG that can be compared to CP3 or Jrue lol.
You could say:
Defense: 1. Tie
Offense: 1. Murray/ CP3 3. Jrue Assists: 1. CP3 2. Murray 3. Jrue Rebounds : 1. Murray 2. CP3 3. Jrue
Best nickname: 1. Gentleman Jack 2. Everyone else
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