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Posted on 2/12/13 at 9:55 am to supe12sta12z
Absolutely. Now for offensive numbers, I'll low ball and say 1 assist = 2 points:
Irving:
23.9 points + 5.5 assists (2 points/assist) = 34.9 points provided
3.5 turnovers
Vasquez:
14 points + 9.4 assist (2 points/assist) = 32.2 points provided
3.3 turnovers
In reality, Vasquez is going to be closer to and possibly equal to Irving in regards to providing offense, because many assists go for 3 points.
Irving:
23.9 points + 5.5 assists (2 points/assist) = 34.9 points provided
3.5 turnovers
Vasquez:
14 points + 9.4 assist (2 points/assist) = 32.2 points provided
3.3 turnovers
In reality, Vasquez is going to be closer to and possibly equal to Irving in regards to providing offense, because many assists go for 3 points.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 9:57 am to FootballNostradamus
quote:
Wait some people think this isn't obviously Irving?
This!
Posted on 2/12/13 at 10:00 am to Jester
Most NBA writers have moved away from AST:TO as a true measure of players because it has no context for player roles. Its still a valuable tool, but perhaps not the most important one
Kyrie basically is a one man team in Cleveland and the only real scoring option they have, so he doesnt pass much. Can he get better at finding the open man/setting teammates up? Absolutely.
His TO rate is actually down this year while USAGE is up. His AST% has dropped too.
Kyrie basically is a one man team in Cleveland and the only real scoring option they have, so he doesnt pass much. Can he get better at finding the open man/setting teammates up? Absolutely.
His TO rate is actually down this year while USAGE is up. His AST% has dropped too.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 10:02 am to lsu480
Ofcourse you'd take Irving. He has the sexy offensive numbers. Even then he has too many flaws in his game to be a true franchise player.
1. He's a 1 way player. Doesn't play defense.
2. He doesn't set up his teammates well for a PG.
3. He doesn't control the game unless it through his scoring.
Is Davis a true franchise player? That remains to be seen but I like what I've seen out of his skillset compared to Irving.
1. He's a 1 way player. Doesn't play defense.
2. He doesn't set up his teammates well for a PG.
3. He doesn't control the game unless it through his scoring.
Is Davis a true franchise player? That remains to be seen but I like what I've seen out of his skillset compared to Irving.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 10:04 am to Jester
You have to be kidding me jester.
Put Irving on the court with some of the spot shooters the hornets have and watch the assist sky rocket. The cavs roster is pretty damn shitty.
Put Irving on the court with some of the spot shooters the hornets have and watch the assist sky rocket. The cavs roster is pretty damn shitty.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 11:23 am to corndeaux
quote:
Most NBA writers have moved away from AST:TO as a true measure of players because it has no context for player roles. Its still a valuable tool, but perhaps not the most important one
Kyrie basically is a one man team in Cleveland and the only real scoring option they have, so he doesnt pass much. Can he get better at finding the open man/setting teammates up? Absolutely.
His TO rate is actually down this year while USAGE is up. His AST% has dropped too.
So, his scoring is inflated.... That knife cuts both ways.
It's not like Vasquez is playing with a top team here, either. Much of the year, he has had little to pass to, but he was always above Irving's numbers.
Look, I'm not saying that Vasquez is his equal, but Irving is being over-valued here based on his scoring. The rest of his game does not stand out as elite as of now.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 11:25 am to dj30
quote:
Put Irving on the court with some of the spot shooters the hornets have and watch the assist sky rocket. The cavs roster is pretty damn shitty
Yeah....our roster is stacked and injuries have had no effect...
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:00 pm to Jester
quote:
but I have serious questions about such an inefficient point guard leading a team. He shoots well, but does he improve his teammates?
the NBA isn't built for cp3s anymore really
it's all about drivers and the pick and roll. irving may never be on westbrook's level, but that type of point just got his team to the finals last year (and bailed them out in a few games along the way)
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:07 pm to Jester
quote:
So, his scoring is inflated.... That knife cuts both ways.
i have followed irving very closely b/c i was completely wrong about him coming out (so i could try to learn what i got wrong)
he's shooting 47.3% from the field and 42.7% from 3
his TS% is 57.4%, which is really good for a point guard and amazing for a 20 year old guard
he's really good at dribbling and really good at shooting. those things are going to allow you to score a ton
quote:
but Irving is being over-valued here based on his scoring. The rest of his game does not stand out as elite as of now.
i agree somewhat, but his shooting, for a 20 year old, is amazing. how many 20 year old guards have shot that well in the NBA in the past 20 years?
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
Irving is an amazing player but you don't need an elite point guard to win titles. An elite big man wins championships unless you're the Heat.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:14 pm to hendersonshands
oh i pick davis, i'm just defending kyrie. he's a lot better than this thread is giving him credit as being
they have bosh
you need an elite scorer (typically a driver) and some defensive bigs
quote:
but you don't need an elite point guard to win titles. An elite big man wins championships unless you're the Heat.
they have bosh
you need an elite scorer (typically a driver) and some defensive bigs
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:21 pm to SlowFlowPro
I always forget about Bosh.
which is the reason the Hornets want to build around Davis and Gordon. The problem is that if we don't see any improvement next year, then people start to get tired of waiting.
quote:
you need an elite scorer (typically a driver) and some defensive bigs
which is the reason the Hornets want to build around Davis and Gordon. The problem is that if we don't see any improvement next year, then people start to get tired of waiting.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:24 pm to hendersonshands
well davis is a rookie, and he's going to need to make a jump next year. gordon needs to stay healthy
lopez has been going balls out lately.
we need another perimeter driver-scorer though
lopez has been going balls out lately.
we need another perimeter driver-scorer though
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
Lopez rebounds like his pussy arse brother. That's fine I guess if Davis rebounds and if Aminu is on the team because he can be an elite rebounder.
I think the idea of needing another driver-scorer is why we drafted Austin Rivers. He's been god awful at finishing but he actually gets the rim really well.
Next year, Davis's MPG should jump to over 30.
I think the idea of needing another driver-scorer is why we drafted Austin Rivers. He's been god awful at finishing but he actually gets the rim really well.
Next year, Davis's MPG should jump to over 30.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:i can see them trading him away.
lopez has been going balls out lately.
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:31 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
Lopez rebounds like his pussy arse brother. That's fine I guess if Davis rebounds and if Aminu is on the team because he can be an elite rebounder.
i think davis needs to make up for this and hit the boards for an 11-12 rpg clip next year
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:32 pm to SlowFlowPro
This thread is hilarious
I mean Jester is in here trying to make the argument that Vasquez is comparable to Irving, and it is unthinkable that someone would take a guy that is in the top 5 in the league in scoring at 20 years old over someone who has so far put up nothing but very average PF numbers.
Irving is a top 5 PG in the entire league in his second season
No shite you take him over Davis
I mean Jester is in here trying to make the argument that Vasquez is comparable to Irving, and it is unthinkable that someone would take a guy that is in the top 5 in the league in scoring at 20 years old over someone who has so far put up nothing but very average PF numbers.
Irving is a top 5 PG in the entire league in his second season
No shite you take him over Davis
This post was edited on 2/12/13 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:35 pm to danman6336
quote:
No shite you take him over Davis
let's wait until AD plays half of his 2nd year before we start comparing the 2
if AD hasn't made significant progress, and irving doesn't fall off (which is unlikely), then we can have the discussion
Posted on 2/12/13 at 12:36 pm to hendersonshands
Interesting stats. Lopez has a PER of 20.67 this year. 6th best in the NBA for centers. Anthony Davis is at 20.17, 7th in the NBA for power forwards; Ryan Anderson is 11th at 19.47.
Everyone tries to act like Rivers is showing no improvement but so far in February (6 games), he's averaging 22 minutes and shooting 46.9%. It's a small sample size but he's starting to finish better. He's only averaging about 6 ppg for the month but if he wasn't so god damn bad at free throws, it'd be up around 7. If we can get some efficient play from him for the rest of the year, I'll be confident in him going into the offseason.
Everyone tries to act like Rivers is showing no improvement but so far in February (6 games), he's averaging 22 minutes and shooting 46.9%. It's a small sample size but he's starting to finish better. He's only averaging about 6 ppg for the month but if he wasn't so god damn bad at free throws, it'd be up around 7. If we can get some efficient play from him for the rest of the year, I'll be confident in him going into the offseason.
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