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re: Pels think they are a playoff team with or without Holiday
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:19 am to Epic Cajun
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:19 am to Epic Cajun
I think the contracts come back down to earth a bit this year...
1
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:28 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
You feel like Jrue is valued equally to
Considering every one of those players got overpaid in a crazy cap year it's not really a good comparison. Also, if Holiday isn't your lead guard then once you find your lead guard he's probably going to be your 4th most important player. How much money do you pay your 4th guy?
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:32 am to Solo
quote:
I think the contracts come back down to earth a bit this year...
They will. They have to. The salary cap isn't as crazy and is less than expected. Teams shot their wad last year and this year it will be much more reasonable.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:35 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
You feel like Jrue is valued equally to Mozgov, Deng, Biyombo, Crabbe, Anderson, Turner, Fournier, and Bazemore?
He's more valuable than all of them if you ask me, but I thought all of them were vastly overpaid outside of Bazemore and Crabbe at the time, and i still thought they were slightly overpaid but was fine with it. The only one worth the money is probably Ryan Anderson at this moment.
If you look at Jrue's real +/-, he's close to top 10 for PG's, and he's in the top 10 for SG's, and he's been that way the last 2 years. Rubio has had a much better +/- than Jrue last 2 years, and Bledsoe and Teague are right there with him.
The Pelicans need to go get Rubio, and then overpay Jrue. If they can still use the MLE in that scenario and get Mills or Collison, or Joe Ingles, Solo gets better at hitting 3's, they could be a very good team.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:39 am to Epic Cajun
As others have said, that was in a year where there was over a billion in cap room. That offseason will be an outlier when we look back. Mozgov goes on the market this summer, he gets 8 mil per. If that
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:39 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
The Pelicans need to go get Rubio
The MLE may not be enough to get him, but Milos Teodosic is a playmaker like Rubio that can shoot 3s. He kind of rebuffed the Nets saying he wants money and the chance to win if he comes to the NBA, but even if he doesn't go to the Nets, if the Nets are offering $10-$15 our $8.4 million MLE is going to look pretty small.
This post was edited on 5/3/17 at 10:40 am
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:42 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Considering every one of those players got overpaid in a crazy cap year it's not really a good comparison.
What else do we have to compare it to? Conjecture?
quote:
How much money do you pay your 4th guy?
Are we discussing his value, or how much the Pels should pay him? I thought that the discussion was how much a good defender, who is a secondary ball handler that can occasionally put up 25-30 pts is worth in this cap environment.
ETA: an average NBA starter is going to make ~15 per season, I feel like he's a bit better than an average starter.
This post was edited on 5/3/17 at 10:46 am
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:00 am to Epic Cajun
Ans I think Jrue is an average starter. You look at all starting guards in the league and numbers 26-35 are "average" and I think Jrue fits right in there
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:03 am to Crewz
quote:
Ans I think Jrue is an average starter
He is. His big plus is that he is a bigger Guard so he can be somewhat versatile both offensively and defensively. He does a few things well (like Defense) but isn't an elite passer, setup man, or scorer.
He's a player anyone would want to have on their team...at the right price.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:10 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
Are we discussing his value, or how much the Pels should pay him?
Both, that's why there's a decent chance we may not keep him.
quote:
ETA: an average NBA starter is going to make ~15 per season, I feel like he's a bit better than an average starter.
I'm not one of these people that thinks he shouldn't be paid a penny over $15 million, but he's still a bit of a role player and you don't want to lock in to him for so much that it keeps you from getting your lead guard.
Once you get much above $22 million you start getting into an area where it'd be hard to move him if you had a shot at say John Wall. As long as he signs for an amount you can dump if you need to I'm ok keeping him. Any more than that and I think we need to move on and figure out the 2nd guard position later.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:12 am to Fun Bunch
quote:\
He does a few things well (like Defense) but isn't an elite passer, setup man, or scorer.
I think he has a legit ability to finish at the rim with his craftiness
Also, he's a good rebounder for his position and, as a SG, he would be a legit passer
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:16 am to Crewz
quote:
You look at all starting guards in the league and numbers 26-35 are "average" and I think Jrue fits right in there
After looking at it, I agree. I thought that he would have been in the 18-25 range, but he's probably somewhere between 25 and 30 of all PGs and SGs.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:34 am to Epic Cajun
Exactly. Plus you got 5-6 more guards coming in this year who should surpass Jrue before his contract ends and some young guys who are below him now but will be better soon and he is average. Point blank
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:40 am to TigerinATL
quote:
The MLE may not be enough to get him, but Milos Teodosic is a playmaker like Rubio that can shoot 3s.
He is regarded as a better passer and shooter, but he can't defend worth a shite and is 30. However he doesn't cost any assets to acquire other than $$$.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 11:56 am to NOFOX
quote:
he can't defend worth a shite and is 30. However he doesn't cost any assets to acquire other than $$$.
He'd be a stop gap, and he might be a liability in the playoffs where it's harder to hide someone like him, but if you could somehow swing him for just the MLE, I'd take him over Mills/Collison.
It also lets you focus your trade assets on SG/SF. Maybe you can turn Moore and 2nds or a heavily protected 1st into Bazemore. Bazemore at $18 is much better than Holiday at $25+.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:01 pm to TigerinATL
This is something that I see a lot of people failing to do- and that's seeing beyond this year
There is NO DEBATE -- the best version of this team next year has Jrue back. Ok, can we all agree on that? Good.
Now the other path is to have a stop gap for a year or two and then still be good enough with AD and Cousins and stop gaps to lure a Butler or Wall in a few years. Unlikely? Sure. But at least that ceiling is title
There is NO DEBATE -- the best version of this team next year has Jrue back. Ok, can we all agree on that? Good.
Now the other path is to have a stop gap for a year or two and then still be good enough with AD and Cousins and stop gaps to lure a Butler or Wall in a few years. Unlikely? Sure. But at least that ceiling is title
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:11 pm to Crewz
quote:
Exactly. Plus you got 5-6 more guards coming in this year who should surpass Jrue before his contract ends and some young guys who are below him now but will be better soon and he is average. Point blank
In an environment where an average guard is getting $25M+, the Pelicans are in a huge bind. How do the Pelicans find a legitimate replacement wih limited space/assets. If Jrue is average and getting $25M+, then Hill/Teague should get $20M+, someone like Patty Mills would seem to command $15M+. Plus the Pelicans generally have to overpay to lure free agents. So you move on to that next tier and is Darren Collison even an option considering his history with Boogie and prior domestic violence charges? Is Shaun Livingston really interested in leaving the Bay area?
I know you are a big fan of moving the 2018 1st for Lin, but do you then pay him (an average guard) $20M+ if he opts out next offseason when we have even less options for replacing? Does the 2018 1st + get Rubio? That would be nice.
You have put in the time and thought to evaluate the seemingly available alternatives if Jrue walks, but if the market for Jrue is truly in the $25M-30M range as the team seems to think, then there are remnants of the crazy money from last year and this is going to flat out be a very difficult offseason for the Pels.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:12 pm to Crewz
That's why Jrue's number matters so much to me. If his deal is palatable enough to be a trade piece in say two years then you use that and then you could have something special. I don't know if we have the foresight for that.
If he's at 4/90 say that's a very tradable contract in two years if his production is neutral or slightly improves. Anything higher that you cut bait and get a stopgap.
If he's at 4/90 say that's a very tradable contract in two years if his production is neutral or slightly improves. Anything higher that you cut bait and get a stopgap.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:13 pm to BallHawk
The team agrees but they are closer to 4/100. They would ideally like to start him a little less than AD with 8 percent raises to get him to that number
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:25 pm to NOFOX
I think Bazemore and Crabbe are both gettable, especially if you're sending them back Moore as a more appropriately priced replacement for the non starting role they have on their teams.
The question is can you get either without the 2018 1st, because you probably need to save that for a PG. Noel went for 2 2nds, and that's all ATL was looking for with Hardaway earlier in the year, so it might be doable.
The question is can you get either without the 2018 1st, because you probably need to save that for a PG. Noel went for 2 2nds, and that's all ATL was looking for with Hardaway earlier in the year, so it might be doable.
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