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Message
re: Omer Asik ain't pretty but
Posted on 12/7/14 at 10:18 am to TigerinATL
Posted on 12/7/14 at 10:18 am to TigerinATL
quote:
br mark is hitting you fellas where it hurts
quote:
It seems kind of pointless to argue.
For like 3 pages now.
0
Posted on 12/7/14 at 10:39 am to brmark70816
quote:
it would be dependent on Davis playing all the time (Anderson and Asik get torched
What they have done with the roster is quite incredible. Because of the lack of any even replacement level 3, they have neutered the pairing of their 2nd and 3rd bigs, who are starting level NBA players. But each guy is too one dimensional to carry that much perimeter dead weight on the court. Without Davis's tremendous versatility, the frontcourt sinks.
For as much positional overlap as they have, the Pelicans are a remarkably inflexible team.
You are right that Asik/Anderson has been torched so far, but I'm not ready to call it a bust yet. Usually, they play with all bench perimeter guys. That won't work; those bench guys bring nothing to the table. Playing them with Evans or Holiday or both might give them the help they need. It may not be a tenable pairing, but it's still early for me.
If they decide to deal one, it's likely Anderson since he still has a year left on his contract for ~$8M. Lots of teams would be interested in him.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 11:13 am to corndeaux
The bench was pretty good last night. Maybe it was just one of those nights, where everything was falling. But it didn't look that bad. It was mainly Anderson/Ajincia/Cunningham frontcourt when they made their run. Babbit held his own with the starters. We just had no answer for Paul/Griffin and our backcourt got worked over (it happens sometimes). It's disappointing they waited this long to make a move to fill such massive holes (SF and back-up PG) and maybe it's not enough. But it is a step in the right direction.
I'd hate to see Anderson moved. I have been critical of him and the holes in his game. But he is a good guy, the fans love him and he has a ton of potential. He has improved and you can see he has added a couple of wrinkles. But he still all offense, just like Asik is all defense. I am curious what they could get for him. I don't see any immediate help coming (starter level SF). If he was moved, I'm thinking that is the beginning of a fire sale. That probably wouldn't happen until this summer.
I'd hate to see Anderson moved. I have been critical of him and the holes in his game. But he is a good guy, the fans love him and he has a ton of potential. He has improved and you can see he has added a couple of wrinkles. But he still all offense, just like Asik is all defense. I am curious what they could get for him. I don't see any immediate help coming (starter level SF). If he was moved, I'm thinking that is the beginning of a fire sale. That probably wouldn't happen until this summer.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 1:28 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
So what is your actual beef with Asik?
Let's be honest, you don't care about my opinion or anything I have said. I covered every point you made over and over in this thread. You have it locked in your mind that I am wrong, so you just wanted to pile on, join your boys and called me stupid or dumb too. It's fine.
I'll wrap up my whole perspective this way. A couple of years ago this team was loaded. We had a PG god, an all star PF, wing players/shooters and we a high dollar defensive Center (Okafor). All Okafor could do was rebound and block shots. No one could deny he was a solid defensive player (one of the best in the league). But it drove us crazy he couldn't give us anything offensively. He was the one we all pointed to and said that it was his fault we couldn't get better. It got so bad, the team literally paid money to get rid of him. So I'm dubious and a bit jaded.
This team is far from a finished product. Every player should be open to scrutiny and criticism. Especially one that is about to become a FA and might be given a ton of money. Maybe he is the right guy to be next to Davis. I haven't seen that yet. I don't see the harm in talking about that.
Lastly, I never compared Asik to Aminu. I compared the situations and the hypocrisy of bashing Aminu but giving Asik a pass. That is a fact. Once again, you saw what someone else said and ran with it.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 2:53 pm to brmark70816
Okafor averaged a double double with 2 blocks during his time in NOLA 
Naw, I was reading directly off of your post when I responded to you. You compared the situations of two different positions. Apples to oranges.
You take the other side on nearly every issue on this board. It's pretty ridiculous and makes you look dumb. Sorry to say that. At one point in time you were telling us Carl Landry was better than Ryan Anderson and that Ryan Anderson should be moved to SF. Like you just make up random shite.. idk.
quote:
Lastly, I never compared Asik to Aminu. I compared the situations and the hypocrisy of bashing Aminu but giving Asik a pass. That is a fact. Once again, you saw what someone else said and ran with it.
Naw, I was reading directly off of your post when I responded to you. You compared the situations of two different positions. Apples to oranges.
quote:
This team is far from a finished product. Every player should be open to scrutiny and criticism. Especially one that is about to become a FA and might be given a ton of money. Maybe he is the right guy to be next to Davis. I haven't seen that yet. I don't see the harm in talking about that.
You take the other side on nearly every issue on this board. It's pretty ridiculous and makes you look dumb. Sorry to say that. At one point in time you were telling us Carl Landry was better than Ryan Anderson and that Ryan Anderson should be moved to SF. Like you just make up random shite.. idk.Posted on 12/7/14 at 4:35 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Okafor averaged a double double with 2 blocks during his time in NOLA
So am I wrong on that or misremembering how it went down? Wasn't everybody pissed at him for like 3 seasons? Is it something we want to repeat?
quote:
Naw, I was reading directly off of your post when I responded to you. You compared the situations of two different positions. Apples to oranges.
Then I wasn't comparing the two players together. So why attack it or try to twist it? Is was a broad analogy. I didn't go after you comparing Asik to Brees. It just seemed petty and personal..
quote:
You take the other side on nearly every issue on this board. It's pretty ridiculous and makes you look dumb. Sorry to say that. At one point in time you were telling us Carl Landry was better than Ryan Anderson and that Ryan Anderson should be moved to SF. Like you just make up random shite.. idk.
I really don't. The people that mainly post on here are a small group and most of you share the same opinions and look at basketball the same way. Outside perspective is generally frowned upon and attacked. Perhaps it is a regional or generational thing, but it is what it is. I just don't pull crap out of my butt. I talk about them and I'd like to think I defend them pretty well.
The Carl Landry thing is a great reference. We held his rights the same year we traded for Anderson (and drafted Davis). I kept rallying for the team to resign Landry or at least try to S&T him. A bunch of guys kept saying how it didn't matter or it was dumb. So we got Anderson for 8M and he has been pretty great so far, no doubt. We let Landry (and Jack) walk away for nothing. He signs for half as much at 4M and plays major minutes for a team that went to the 2nd round of the playoffs. You don't think I had a point there? We couldn't have got something out of him?
The Anderson thing is just wishful thinking. He plays like a SF so I keep hoping he can turn into one. It would solve a ton of issues with this team. I still wish they could make that work somehow. Also, I can link half a dozen articles or other forum boards where people have said the same thing. It's not a new concept and I wasn't being original by suggesting it.
This post was edited on 12/7/14 at 4:37 pm
Posted on 12/7/14 at 4:51 pm to brmark70816
quote:
The Anderson thing is just wishful thinking. He plays like a SF so I keep hoping he can turn into one. It would solve a ton of issues with this team. I still wish they could make that work somehow. Also, I can link half a dozen articles or other forum boards where people have said the same thing. It's not a new concept and I wasn't being original by suggesting it.
Keep hoping he could turn into one, but it isn't going to happen. This many years and even with good coaches through his career, he is a stretch 4 and that is it. He's very good at what he does, but his speed is not going to keep up with 3s and he's not going to bang with the 4s. He's a utility player and until you get a true 3&D SF, him and Davis on the court at the same time will give up a lot of points.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 5:09 pm to htran90
Yeah, I know. I have acknowledged it many times. Doesn't matter. I still get it thrown back at me. I was just trying to find a way to make our best two players fit and play together. I think it is something that the coach is still trying to figure out..
Posted on 12/7/14 at 5:39 pm to brmark70816
quote:
So am I wrong on that or misremembering how it went down? Wasn't everybody pissed at him for like 3 seasons? Is it something we want to repeat?
We were pissed at Okafor for the same reason you're pissed at Asik, the lack of production from the wings made him being a 10 ppg center rather than a 15 ppg center very frustrating. Okafor took the brunt of the anger because he was an easy target with his Captain Pilates reputation. Basically people thought he was soft by choice and should be able to do better. Asik isn't soft and is giving everything he has, it's just not good enough for 15ppg.
Okafor also was making max money, you keep throwing around Asik's balloon payment like it's his cap figure and it isn't. Asik was not getting a deal for 3/$45 3 years ago, he'd get 3/$24 just like he got, but the nature of the poison pill contract changed the distribution of the dollars. Asik will probably get $10-$12 next year, but that's not max level money either. In fact if you look at is a percentage of the expected $80 million cap, $12 is the equivalent of $8.7 million on a $58 million cap.
quote:
Then I wasn't comparing the two players together.
You did try to equate them in your attempt to use "fan hypocrisy" as a piece of evidence in your favor. The "hypocrisy" is justified because we've had a desperate need for a competent 3 and D SF for years which Aminu couldn't be. While everyone would love to have a Marc Gasol on the team, he's not a need. The need has been a defensive anchor that rebounds and takes on the physical play for AD.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 6:49 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Okafor also was making max money, you keep throwing around Asik's balloon payment like it's his cap figure and it isn't. Asik was not getting a deal for 3/$45 3 years ago, he'd get 3/$24 just like he got, but the nature of the poison pill contract changed the distribution of the dollars. Asik will probably get $10-$12 next year, but that's not max level money either. In fact if you look at is a percentage of the expected $80 million cap, $12 is the equivalent of $8.7 million on a $58 million cap.
I don't think Okafor was getting max money. Maybe it was an early max deal, but he never made more than 12.5M with us. I thought that was why we traded Chandler for him, cause he was going to be cheaper. Not that that helps my point any. I just remember that it was a rip off.
Do you think 10-12M is a good deal for Asik? Do you think that is the direction the team should go in long term? I'm not asking that sarcastically. I really want to know your opinion.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 7:23 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I don't think Okafor was getting max money.
It was an escalating contract that ended near max money. He made $14,487,500 in the last year of his deal. $11.5 and $12.5 while he was a Hornet, or around 20% of the cap. The expectations of a player making 20% vs. 15% are different, solid starter vs good starter.
quote:
Do you think 10-12M is a good deal for Asik?
I think thats the market value. The problem with the build going forward isn't Asik, I really don't think you're going to do much better. Paying $6-$8 for a Koufos doesn't really give you that much more flexibility. Sure you could add another bench guy, and more depth would be nice, but that can also be added after the fact once you're over the cap with the MLE each year. What's hard to lock down once you're over the cap are the starters. We really have to turn Gordon into a starting SF next year, and either Tyreke is going to be our starting SG long term or he's going to need to be traded for the player that will be that guy.
This post was edited on 12/7/14 at 7:29 pm
Posted on 12/7/14 at 7:28 pm to TigerinATL
I liked Okafor. He had problems with certain matchups, but he was a solid player. He actually played well against Howard and some other big C's.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 7:46 pm to VOR
Every struggling team needs a scapegoat. At the time, that was Okafor, mainly due to how much money he was making.
In reality, you could count the number of players who averaged a double double with 2 blocks for the 3 years Okafor was a Hornet on one hand.
In reality, you could count the number of players who averaged a double double with 2 blocks for the 3 years Okafor was a Hornet on one hand.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 7:51 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Do you think 10-12M is a good deal for Asik? Do you think that is the direction the team should go in long term? I'm not asking that sarcastically. I really want to know your opinion.
Honest question for you: Do you think that Asik being the 22nd highest paid center in the NBA is good value based on his production?
Like ATL pointed out, if he even gets $10-12m, it will be equivalent to what he is making now under the expected cap next year.
Posted on 12/7/14 at 8:58 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Honest question for you: Do you think that Asik being the 22nd highest paid center in the NBA is good value based on his production?
I don't know. I guess it is. I know he is a good defender. Obviously he is going to put up great rebound numbers. I can't say that the team is any better this season, than they were last when they used a horrible rotation of journeymen.
But I'll say yes. He would probably be considered a bargain as the 22nd highest paid Center.
quote:
Like ATL pointed out, if he even gets $10-12m, it will be equivalent to what he is making now under the expected cap next year.
Is the cap going up that much next year? I thought the agreement ran another season and then they have to renegotiate (lockout). So that would be the 2016 season. Something I just thought of. They might bring back the amnesty with a new labor agreement. But it's still quite a bit of money.
So are we totally giving up on Davis ever playing Center?
Posted on 12/7/14 at 9:26 pm to brmark70816
Posted on 12/7/14 at 9:59 pm to brmark70816
Davis is already playing 33% of the team's available minutes at center, compared to Asik's 43%
He is still pushed around by bigger adversaries. In time he could be the answer there
He is still pushed around by bigger adversaries. In time he could be the answer there
Posted on 12/7/14 at 10:16 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Is the cap going up that much next year?
That's up in the air because we don't know what's happening with the TV money next year. Before the TV money $67 million was the expected cap, up from $63 this year. The expectations for the following year are $80-$90 million with the TV deal taking effect. New deals will be made with the TV money taken into account because the deal is signed, the money is coming, and a predetermined amount is owed to the salary cap. The only question is will some of it leak in next year to keep from having a massive one year jump. in 2 years.
This post was edited on 12/7/14 at 10:17 pm
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