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Message
re: NBA Offseason officially kicks off, Ingram’s days in NOLA coming to an end per Stein
Posted on 8/14/24 at 10:36 am to shel311
Posted on 8/14/24 at 10:36 am to shel311
quote:
Willie has talked for multiple seasons about wanting BI to take better shots. BI's shot selection got worse. That's on BI. He's had opportunities to take higher efficiency shots, he continually passes those opportunities up.
Ok I'll bite. I will agree that BI was just "slightly" better than CJ in the time frame you keep referencing. But can you agree that BI's potential/ abilities are way greater than CJ at this point in their career?
So let me get this right:
1. BI is capable of much more but fell short
2. BI played down to CJ's level
3. You admitted BI was still better than CJ last year even tho he played terrible
4. Your whole argument is "BI can do so much more but hasn't" and then act like he isn't capable
Why is it that when people want to compare Trey/ Herb/ CJ to BI they use the "best" version of those guys and the worst BI that can be imagined.
1
Posted on 8/14/24 at 10:44 am to Dantheman504
quote:
I will agree that BI was just "slightly" better than CJ in the time frame you keep referencing
quote:Yes, without question. But again, BI's abilities and what he does well will be further reduced this season because we have Murray. BI will have the ball in his hands less this coming season than any previous Pels season, his usage will be his lowest as a Pel. And we all know BI is rather useless off ball, so there won't be any making up for it when he doesn't have the ball. He needs the ball to do his thing, he will have the ball less next season than ever before.
But can you agree that BI's potential/ abilities are way greater than CJ at this point in their career?
But yes, his value and potential are obviously decidedly better than CJ based on age and potential of improving.
quote:100%. BI could be every bit as good as dude's like Booker IMO, he has that skillset. Look at shot selection. I've been calling it out for years. Look at how much he used to get shots at the rim with LA and his 1st year here, and look at the drop off. And when I say drop off, I'm talking about 35% of his shots at the rim to like 14% type drop off. If he had the right shot selection that I am absolutely confident he has the ability to pull off, he can be as good as a top 15 player. But I think the book is written, and he's not changing other than incrementally. The book is closed on him making that huge change to max out how good I think he could be based on his skillset, it's just not happening.
1. BI is capable of much more but fell short
quote:Correct
2. BI played down to CJ's level
quote:I disagree with your opinion that BI played terrible last season.
3. You admitted BI was still better than CJ last year even tho he played terrible
quote:Where exactly did I act like he isn't capable? He is capable, he will not choose to do it, what more evidence do you need to believe that?
4. Your whole argument is "BI can do so much more but hasn't" and then act like he isn't capable
quote:I used last season. I said BI was only slightly better than CJ last season. That's an entire year of a sample size, and the most recent year of data we have. It's wild that you think talking about how well our guys played last season is something we should not do or is wrong to do.
Why is it that when people want to compare Trey/ Herb/ CJ to BI they use the "best" version of those guys and the worst BI that can be imagined.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 10:51 am
Posted on 8/14/24 at 10:53 am to shel311
quote:
In the past 3 seasons, BI has scored over 35 8 times, CJ 6. So...a bit better.
Last season, BI did it twice, CJ once. So...a bit better like I keep saying. So even the data point you mentioned shows that BI is just slightly better than CJ at it.
And Zion only did it 3 times. I guess he's just a bit better than BI? Franchise player, #1 player on the team......right?
yes i'm being facetious.
BI scored 30+ 10 times last year. We were 6-4 in those games.
CJ scored 30+ 9 times last year. We were 7-2 in those games.
Zion scored 30+ 13 times last year. We were 8-5 in those games.
BI scored under 15 15 times last year. We were 8-7 in those games.
CJ scored under 15 18 times last year. We were 8-10 in those games.
Zion scored under 15 11 times last year. We were 7-4 in those games.
What does all that mean? Who the hell knows.
We were 10-0 when Trey scored 24 or more.
We were 16-2 when he made 4+ threes.
What I can say about all that is that you expect your top 2 guys to score. You typically see the bigger difference in wins and losses on the 3rd and 4th scorer. When they score, you usually win. When they don't, it's a bigger load on the top 2 guys to perform.
The Nuggets were 16-3 when MPJ scored 22 or more.
CJ took 2.8 shots per game with under 8 seconds left on the shot clock, and he was actually very efficient at it, about 60% from the field including 43% from 3.
BI took 3.5 shots per game with under 8 seconds left on the shot clock, and he wasn't all that efficient at 47% from 2 and 26% from 3.
Zion took 2.0 shots per game with under 8 seconds left on the shot clock, and hit those at around 56%, although he was only 39% with under 4 seconds left.
Here's some other fun stats to look at that can be interpreted a million ways pointlessly.
Zion passed the ball the most to CJ this past year. 23% of his passes were to CJ. 9 of them per game. CJ only took 1.8 3 point attempts off those 9 passes.
Zion passed the ball to BI only 4.6 times per game for 11% of his passes. BI took 0.7 3's off those 4.6 passes (38%).
So CJ took about the same rate of 3's off Zion passes as BI did. Must be all those wide open 3's CJ 's passing up to take contested mid range jumpers as far the reason he and BI are similar here.
Zion passed to Trey and Herb about the same as BI, 4.5 and 4.8 respectively. Trey took 1.7 3's off of them and Herb 0.9, both more than BI, with Trey at a pretty high rate of 3's taken comparably.
A weird stat is that Trey shot 34% from 3 off BI passes, while he shot 38% off CJ passes and 42% from 3 off Zion passes
Zion's FG% was highest off Herb passes at 56% and then BI at 52%. He was 46% off CJ passes and 48% off Trey passes.
and no need to argue points on all this crap. Just thought they were interesting to see. wasnt trying to prove or disprove anythign with them as there more to the game than just stats. But they are somewhat interesting.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 11:00 am to shel311
quote:
And we all know BI is rather useless off ball, so there won't be any making up for it when he doesn't have the ball. He needs the ball to do his thing, he will have the ball less next season than ever before.
He was an elite scorer on off ball screens this year. I've shown that stat several times.
He is a better offensive player with Jose in the game compared to anyone else on the team.
To think he won't be better off the ball seems like a rather baseless and bias opinion.
His shot selection has not been good. I've said it before and you alluded to it here as well, his attempts at the rim are almost more concerning than the lack of 3's.
I'd like to see what changes he can make off the ball with Murray. If he's still the same dude not shooting enough 3's and not getting to the basket more, then by all means get rid of him before the deadline. But if his efficiency rises b/c his shot selection is better, than it would be stupid to trade him. His potential is so much greater than CJ's, and Trey can replace what CJ does and is better defensively.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 11:00 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:This is one of my biggest criticism of Zion I point out all the time, so I'm not sure what point that makes?
And Zion only did it 3 times
Zion has no game outside of around the rim, and that will always hinder his ability to get 35+ like the best players do, something I've said over and over. He will always have a ceiling, probably outside top 20 if he can ONLY score from 5 feet and in
quote:But following the discussion that was being had, then tell me that data I posted did not help my argument.
I guess he's just a bit better than BI? Franchise player, #1 player on the team......right?
yes i'm being facetious.
- I say BI was slightly better than CJ
- Poster disagrees, and part of his reasoning is how BI can get you 35 or 40 but CJ can't
- I point out that BI is only slightly better at getting 35 or 40 than CJ
Again, tell me how the 35-40 points argument helped that poster and not me? It was a small sample of data, but it went along the lines of my exact argument, did it not?
quote:10-9, that's slightly better isn't it?
BI scored 30+ 10 times last year. We were 6-4 in those games.
CJ scored 30+ 9 times last year. We were 7-2 in those games.
quote:3 times less, a bit better, no?
BI scored under 15 15 times last year. We were 8-7 in those games.
CJ scored under 15 18 times last year. We were 8-10 in those games.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 11:10 am to shel311
I'll also add that of those 9 times CJ scored 30+, BI wasn't playing in 6 of those games, and Zion wasn't playing in 2 of them.
CJ stepped up last year and had a great year.
I know I've harped on his terrible defense a lot, but i really don't like looking into that playoff series a lot b/c without Zion it changes everything.
CJ as our #3 was elite. The only reason i'd consider keeping BI over CJ going forward, is first assuming BI excels off the ball more, but more importantly b/c BI is a much better defender and rebounder than CJ, and b/c I think Trey as the #4 is better suited to be maximized than CJ as the #4.
But if Murray excels in closing games, BI struggles to adjust, then i've got no problem with moving BI and CJ/Trey being the #3/4 guys on our team going forward. I think we'd really need to find another defensive minded wing to come off the bench though, as losing Dyson hurts, as well as Naji.
CJ stepped up last year and had a great year.
I know I've harped on his terrible defense a lot, but i really don't like looking into that playoff series a lot b/c without Zion it changes everything.
CJ as our #3 was elite. The only reason i'd consider keeping BI over CJ going forward, is first assuming BI excels off the ball more, but more importantly b/c BI is a much better defender and rebounder than CJ, and b/c I think Trey as the #4 is better suited to be maximized than CJ as the #4.
But if Murray excels in closing games, BI struggles to adjust, then i've got no problem with moving BI and CJ/Trey being the #3/4 guys on our team going forward. I think we'd really need to find another defensive minded wing to come off the bench though, as losing Dyson hurts, as well as Naji.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 11:24 am to shel311
quote:
Where exactly did I act like he isn't capable? He is capable, he will not choose to do it, what more evidence do you need to believe that?
quote:
Why is it that when people want to compare Trey/ Herb/ CJ to BI they use the "best" version of those guys and the worst BI that can be imagined.
I used last season. I said BI was only slightly better than CJ last season. That's an entire year of a sample size, and the most recent year of data we have.
quote:
It's wild that you think talking about how well our guys played last season is something we should not do or is wrong to do
Only because it is being used directly to attack BI or downgrade his (overall) abilities and potential. Again we need a player like Karlo on this team more than BI. That shouldn't be used as a comparison or opinion of BI as a player.
quote:
He is capable, he will not choose to do it,
And this is where we disagree. If there's ever a time for BI to "choose" to be the best player he can be its now.... The overwhelming opinion that BI will now suddenly just accept he's a #3 and decline is strange regardless of personal feelings about his play style.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 11:39 am to Dantheman504
quote:Relax, it's not that serious.
Only because it is being used directly to attack BI or downgrade his (overall) abilities and potential.
I think it's telling of your ability to have a rational discussion about this when you think just posting opinions based on data is "attacking" someone. Also funny that you constantly talk about how I think CJ is a God, then call it attacking BI to say BI is a little better than CJ, who you say I think is a God who can do no wrong. You have to kinda figure out those arguments and change one of them, because both tighter quite literally do not make any sense, I'm sure you realize that at this point. But again, I think it speaks to you not being terribly rational about BI takes.
quote:You think the evidence of BI's play in the past support your assertion that he's finally going to change his game or mine that he's shown for 8 or 9 years now what he is and should not expect a huge change?
And this is where we disagree
quote:Just to ensure we're on the same page, you do think that's a very concerning thing right? You said it in a confusing way like it's a really positive thing that BI will come out next year to try to prove he's the best player on the team, but you do agree that that would be a massive problem I assume, correct?
If there's ever a time for BI to "choose" to be the best player he can be its now.... The overwhelming opinion that BI will now suddenly just accept he's a #3 and decline is strange regardless of personal feelings about his play style.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 11:41 am
Posted on 8/14/24 at 12:35 pm to shel311
Not speaking for anyone, for sure, except myself but the board has a few members, including yourself who often post without any sense of levity. Doubling down on Zion’s potential is a reasonable strategy, but the constant disregard for actual contributions BI has made taking the team from a perennial lottery to a near 50 win team is annoying. To each his own, but its a solid argument to state he’s been the Pels best player over the course of the past 5 years.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 12:54 pm to Pistol44
quote:
Not speaking for anyone, for sure, except myself but the board has a few members, including yourself who often post without any sense of levity. Doubling down on Zion’s potential is a reasonable strategy, but the constant disregard for actual contributions BI has made taking the team from a perennial lottery to a near 50 win team is annoying. To each his own, but its a solid argument to state he’s been the Pels best player over the course of the past 5 years.
Surely you realize that there is a ceiling for a team with BI as it's best player, and that ceiling is not even the conference finals.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 1:20 pm to Epic Cajun
That may very well be the case, but not the point of the post. I’m talking strictly from there to here. The biggest obstacle to this team having even more success has been availability. I for one want to see this team without, as AD puts it, having to depend on BI and Zion both manning the grill and serving the plates. However, I do acknowledge them doing so bringing the team to its current state and the physical toll its taken on both Slim and Husky.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 1:49 pm to Pistol44
quote:Did you mean to post that to the other guy? The guy I had to tell to relax because he said I was attacking BI for saying BI was a little better than CJ?
Not speaking for anyone, for sure, except myself but the board has a few members, including yourself who often post without any sense of levity.
I'm very confused by this reply
quote:By me? I've said nothing in this thread or last few replies that do anything of the sort. If I did, show me where. All I said was BI was slightly better than CJ last season, which I can back up with data.
but the constant disregard for actual contributions BI has made taking the team from a perennial lottery to a near 50 win team is annoying
This goes to the other point, me saying one singular thing that I can back up very well with data and facts, and others thinking that means something completely different than what I said.
You don't get to be correct or have proven me wrong by striking down assertions I've never made.
quote:I was never having that discussion. It IS also a solid argument to say he was only slightly better than CJ last season, which is all I said. You've attributed arguments to me that I never made and then changed the subject to insinuate something completely separate and not relevant to what I said...just like the other poster did.
To each his own, but its a solid argument to state he’s been the Pels best player over the course of the past 5 years.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 1:53 pm to Pistol44
quote:Now use that to re-evaluate the statement of mine that you replied to.
That may very well be the case, but not the point of the post.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 2:07 pm to shel311
quote:
And this is where we disagree
You think the evidence of BI's play in the past support your assertion that he's finally going to change his game or mine that he's shown for 8 or 9 years now what he is and should not expect a huge change?
He shot 39% and 38% on 6 attempts from 3pt his first 2 seasons. His 1st season on the roster was the year he made an all star selection. It was also the year he got traded and had a chip on his shoulder.. So yeah that's actually exactly what I believe.
Fun fact: BI's best 2 games from 3pt EVER were both this last season..
30min/ 41pts/ 9ast/ 6reb/ 8-11 3pt/ 72%/ 16-21FG
34min/ 28pts/ 10reb/ 10ast/ 7-11/ 63.6%/ 8-19FG
Not only do I think he can do it but he's shown he can. And that's the "most recent" BI we have seen so that kills your bullshite philosophy.
You can debate with yourself if he will actually "sustain" that for the rest of his career but it would be naive to think BI isn't considering all of this after the way the offseason has gone.
BI vs the Raptors wasn't even a good #2, he was a #1. I won't look past his inability to stay consistent from 3pt but I also won't ignore that we saw a glimpse of that BI last year and y'all are ignoring the frick out of that.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 2:44 pm to shel311
No, more to the series of posts leading to the CJ and BI topic, which is ridiculous as CJ has never been game planned for or had the opps best or second best defender guarding him. Just the absolutes that Pels have to move off BI with minimal return if necessary. When you get like that your slip is showing.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 2:45 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 2:49 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
You can debate with yourself if he will actually "sustain" that for the rest of his career but it would be naive to think BI isn't considering all of this after the way the offseason has gone.
I believe you are saying that Ingram is going through some sort or career crisis or crossroads. He'll be able to analyze his position and make whatever adjustments he needs to. But if he's given a solid long term contract (3-4 years, 120-150M) and his spot in the lineup is secure, where would the pressure come? What adverse events would prompt him to make changes?
quote:
BI vs the Raptors wasn't even a good #2, he was a #1.
What does this mean?
I've seen journeymen get hot and drop 50 in an NBA game. Single game performances really don't mean that much.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 2:50 pm to Dantheman504
quote:So you put all your stock into 2 games and zero stock in the other 62 games? Well then...
Fun fact: BI's best 2 games from 3pt EVER were both this last season..
30min/ 41pts/ 9ast/ 6reb/ 8-11 3pt/ 72%/ 16-21FG
34min/ 28pts/ 10reb/ 10ast/ 7-11/ 63.6%/ 8-19FG
quote:Can you explain in detail what my "bullshite philosophy?" I will be legit shocked if you do so without your usual making shite up I never said.
Not only do I think he can do it but he's shown he can. And that's the "most recent" BI we have seen so that kills your bullshite philosophy.
Also funny that you say I have a "bullshite philosophy" in your very next statement after a philosophy that 2 BI games is more indicative than the other 62 games...that's not bullshite philosophy?
quote:You are what you consistently do. What you do in 1 game is entirely irrelevant to who you are as a player. What you can do consistently is all that matters long term.
BI vs the Raptors wasn't even a good #2, he was a #1
quote:You are what you consistently do. Daniel Theis scored 19/7, 18/7, and 16/11 in games last season. Does that mean we are set with no worries at the 5 because he had 3 good games? Of course not. So why are you not applying the same standard on small sample sizes to BI?
I won't look past his inability to stay consistent from 3pt but I also won't ignore that we saw a glimpse of that BI last year and y'all are ignoring the frick out of that.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 2:56 pm to Pistol44
quote:Well that's certainly not true, given the amount of games Zion and BI have missed since CJ joined the team. That's 100% clearly incorrect, wondering if you will reply to concede that?
which is ridiculous as CJ has never been game planned for or had the opps best or second best defender guarding him
The year we traded for CJ he played every single games as the #1 or #2 option and half those games as the #1 option, so he very obviously had the opponent's best or 2nd best defender on him. Check his stations.
Season after that, Zion played 29 games and BI played 45 games. But CJ wasn't the #1 or #2 option...ever according to you?
Again, I'm hopeful you can be unbiased and come back and admit that your assertion was very much incorrect.
quote:What's your alternative? Give him the money he wants? How will that work out trying to trade him? What if we do and he has a season ending injury 30 games into the season?
Just the absolutes that Pels have to move off BI with minimal return if necessary. When you get like that your slip is showing.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:00 pm to shel311
quote:
Can you explain in detail what my "bullshite philosophy?" I will be legit shocked if you do so without your usual making shite up I never said.
Also funny that you say I have a "bullshite philosophy" in your very next statement after a philosophy that 2 BI games is more indicative than the other 62 games...that's not bullshite philosophy
quote:
You think the evidence of BI's play in the past support your assertion that he's finally going to change his game or mine that he's shown for 8 or 9 years now what he is and should not expect a huge change?
So "he is what he is" even thought he just had the (2) best 3pt games of his 8 year career on a "rough year"? And you don't think BI will have a chip on his shoulder after this offseason?
If the conversation is about fit on this team based on salary and past history then sure I agree with whatever long arse BS you are trying to say. If its about BI as a player then you are just being ignorant IMO.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 3:01 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:03 pm to shel311
quote:
You are what you consistently do
And what consistency have we had?
Both of our best players healthy?
A starting PG?
A coach worth a shite?
A locker room leader with a backbone?
Gtfo here. I guess those are all BI's fault, He's the reason we aren't a contender. Lol.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 3:04 pm
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