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Is Fox more Westbrook or Morant?

Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:14 am
Posted by ghost2most
Member since Mar 2012
7904 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:14 am
I haven't watched a ton of Fox, but I do see quite a few similarities between he and Westbrook.

Extreme athleticism and ability to get to the rim.

Bad shooters.

Good stats, bad teams.

I just have hesitation that a non-shooting scoring PG is what the NBA is currently all about.

Morant would be the counter to this. He can't shoot and Memphis is playing great. Fox and Morant on paper, look similar stat wise.
Posted by jmcwhrter
Member since Nov 2012
7959 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:19 am to
Morant is Westbrook that passes sometimes
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:25 am to
It took several months but Willie finally got NAW to stop chucking up 3s.

More Morant than Westbrook probably all depends on Fox buying in. A new team where everyone is already bought in and you have 2 players that are clearly better scorers than you seems like the perfect place to put Fox on the non Westbrook path.
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30286 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:29 am to
quote:

Bad shooters.



DeAaron Fox catch and shoot 3's.
2022 34%
2021 39%
2020 33%
2019 40%

He takes twice as many pull up 3's as C&S 3's, and he's pretty terrible at pull up 3's.

Maybe with an actual coach that isn't an idiot he can reverse that trend, especially playing more off ball with Zion.
His ability to get to the rim is elite. If he can just be a smarter 3 point shooter, like Lonzo became, then i think he can be a great PG for us.
His game would have to change a bit, and i say that more towards his shot selection. He's always been the best offensive player on his team, and if he comes here he's at best the 2nd best player, and really more likely the 3rd best b/c of BI's shooting and ability to play one on one.
His role here with the ball would be to get to the rim and if you can't, dish it out. off the ball his role would be to shoot wide open C&S 3's, or pump fake and get to the rim which should be easier to do b/c Zion probably just broke the defense down. What we can't have is Fox and BI taking turns playing 1 on 1 and dribbling around until the force a shot. That's what bad teams do, and it's what those two have been doing for a while. They are getting older and maturing and i think once the realize they have so much help offensively they can start playing smarter on that end.
Posted by PigDog33
Louisiana
Member since Jul 2021
995 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 8:56 am to
quote:

Morant is Westbrook that passes sometimes


Ain’t saying Westbrook is good; but he passed the ball enough to average over 11 assist a game last year.
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
11360 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:11 am to
I always thought of Fox like a John Wall. Fast and quick. Tall and long for a PG. Explosive. Can't shoot, but can score. Wall was a pretty good defender though. I'd be more interested if Fox was a plus on that side. He has the tools to be a good defender.

Crazy, but I honestly thought that Lewis has the same level of talent as Fox. Same type of speed and quickness. But is not as fearless and not as good of a player..
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:11 am to
quote:

He takes twice as many pull up 3's as C&S 3's, and he's pretty terrible at pull up 3's.

Maybe with an actual coach that isn't an idiot he can reverse that trend, especially playing more off ball with Zion.


I hope, but honestly, it hasn't happened with Graham and Fox has a perfect guy in Haliburton to embrace a more off ball role but instead it has created issues to the point they are looking to move him.

If we are being honest we are banking on Zion/BI being able to force a style of play change for Fox or it could be a very, very ugly relationship.

Same with Sexton.

Which is why there is a part of me that would prefer holding off on a major move until the offseason.

Because in my mind I would much rather a situation where we preserve our assets, land a TyTy, Mathurin, Sharpe, or Ivory, go after a Jalen Brunson and then decide if we need additional upgrades and perhaps a better first, or to use that draft pick to sweeten the pot for a better deal.

For me the only reason to rush is to save Griff's job and I'm not exactly concerned with that.
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:13 am to
quote:

If we are being honest we are banking on Zion/BI being able to force a style of play change for Fox or it could be a very, very ugly relationship.


I think we're banking on Willie convincing Fox he'll become an All Star by passing to his All Star teammates so they win a lot and make the playoffs, not the play in.
This post was edited on 2/4/22 at 9:14 am
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:21 am to
quote:

I think we're banking on Willie convincing Fox he'll become an All Star by passing to his All Star teammates so they win a lot and make the playoffs, not the play in.




All of that is a component, but its a major risk if you are talking about giving up multiple firsts and young players to try it out.

My only point is that I'd rather make these choices in the offseason than not only give up probably more to get him now, but potentially forfeit our pick as well.

I'll wait and see what happens, but I am very nervous about a situation where Griff gives up two firsts and a young player only for the Fox experiment to end up with middling results and you are stuck with a luxury team and core that is fighting against their PG going into frickball mode too much and too often.

Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30286 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:22 am to
quote:

Crazy, but I honestly thought that Lewis has the same level of talent as Fox. Same type of speed and quickness. But is not as fearless and not as good of a player..



We've been through this before. Kira is no where near Fox when it comes to god given talent. If he was, he would have been drafted top 5. Fox is bigger, longer, and much much much more athletic. Kira's speed is elite, but he has no where near the athletic ability in the air like Fox has, which is similar to Westbrook and Wall. That's the two comparisons Fox had on his draft profile. Kira was compared to Schroeder and Darren Collison.
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30286 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:30 am to
quote:

I'll wait and see what happens, but I am very nervous about a situation where Griff gives up two firsts and a young player only for the Fox experiment to end up with middling results and you are stuck with a luxury team and core that is fighting against their PG going into frickball mode too much and too often.




Hows that risk any different than taking a player in the draft and expecting that player to outperform Fox? We know who Fox is, and at least we know he's a good player. Fit is a different question. We had 3 other drafts to find the guy you're talking about after we selected Zion and we could barely find role players with those 4 picks.
I'm done with the draft. Drafting a quality player at this point is lagniappe to me. I'd put zero emphasis on any draft pick towards our future roster. If you can upgrade the team via trading those picks, then do it. We had our chance to draft another starter, and we failed. It's time to start winning games and putting the pieces together to get to a championship. You can't rely on the draft to upgrade your team. I'm not saying make dumb trades just to make them, but having the philosophy of we'll get better through the draft is the wrong mindset at this time with our assets and team makeup, especially when we'll have a less than 25% chance at a top 4 pick.
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:33 am to
quote:

My only point is that I'd rather make these choices in the offseason than not only give up probably more to get him now, but potentially forfeit our pick as well.



I'm with you on trying to keep the pick, but I also think you might have a better shot at Fox now than this summer. Sabonis wasn't really on the table a few weeks ago, then the injury happened and put him out there.

The Pels problem is they have a lot of dimes and nickels that they need to exchange for quarters to get a player they want. If there's a quarter available now that is a key to getting Fox and you can get him for $.30 to $.35, I'm not sure you can wait.
This post was edited on 2/4/22 at 9:33 am
Posted by PELsu
Member since Oct 2021
1733 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:36 am to
Meh, Fox is listed at 6’3 185, with a 6’6 wingspan

Kira is listed at 6’3, 170 with a 6’7 wingspan

But Kira is also 20 years old. I think they are extremely similar in make and build. Kira could easily gain 10-15 pounds over the next three years. Biggest difference between the two is Fox’s finishing ability. Kira has struggled to finish while Fox is fairly elite at it. And I would say Fox is slightly shiftier. I think Kira is a better shooter, or at least projects to be.

Fox has bit more game strength that he plays with, which I think again stems from just how young and early on Kira still is. I think we sell Kira too short in what he can become overall. Wait until that guy is 26 and see what you have.
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:49 am to
quote:

Hows that risk any different than taking a player in the draft and expecting that player to outperform Fox?


For one, you arent giving up multiple firsts and potentially another young player.

So it's not just is Fox better than X draft pick, it's is Fox worth giving up the total opportunity cost it takes to bring him in(potentially 2 firsts, a young player, and then a worse or no draft pick this year), and to me, based on the rumors, I'm not sure it is, or what we could do with the money/assets instead: McCollum, Powell, some combo of Brunson or Tyus Jones + our first rounder + a role player trade in the offseason etc.

I know everyone wants to think the only possible outcome of the new shiny object we get is that it shines brighter and brighter. But Fox has a lot of red flags, and unless we get a great deal, it's putting a lot of eggs into the basket of a player there is a reasonable concern considering Fox has largely sat at the same plateau for three seasons.

I mean are you satisfied if all we get out of Fox next year is a 20-5 on 31% from three, bad defense, and questionable iso tendencies? Because that's the player he is now and there is no guarantee he becomes the ideal some imagine for him

This post was edited on 2/4/22 at 9:54 am
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30286 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:54 am to
quote:

I think we sell Kira too short in what he can become overall. Wait until that guy is 26 and see what you have.


He's not going to magically start jumping like Fox does. That's what makes Fox elite at getting to the rim, same as his player comps in Westbrook and Wall. They are elite jumpers. Kira is not, and it's why he was compared to Schroeder and Collison. Doesn't mean Kira isn't athletic or can't jump, he just can't do it like Fox can.
Fox will attack the rim no matter who is defending it, and he has the ability to finish with that defender there. Kira cannot do that against the average rim protector.
Posted by supe12sta12z
Tiger Town
Member since Apr 2012
13261 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 9:55 am to
Fox is completed fill out and a lot stronger right now. Kira gained some weight this past offseason but he still looks like a string bean out there and is still relatively weak.

As far as skillset goes, Fox is a hell of a lot better. He can take contact... Even initiates it from time to time. He also very good at changing speeds and has much better feel in traffic as well especially when it comes to footwork. He can set up multiple defenders when he's driving and has the craftiness and a variety of angles where he can get his shot up.

Kira is a straight line driver for the most part. Watching him try to change speeds feels unnatural because he doesn't have a great feel for it. Once he gets into the lane, he doesn't know how to set up bigs and he ends up rushing his shot 9 out of 10 times and they tend to be ugly. Kira is also limited in terms of body control and contortion.

I don't think Lewis will ever reach Fox's level. His ceiling based on what I've seen is probably Schroeder with a better deep ball and defense.
Posted by NOSHAU
Member since Feb 2012
13707 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 10:31 am to
quote:

Meh, Fox is listed at 6’3 185, with a 6’6 wingspan

Kira is listed at 6’3, 170 with a 6’7 wingspan

But Kira is also 20 years old. I think they are extremely similar in make and build. Kira could easily gain 10-15 pounds over the next three years. Biggest difference between the two is Fox’s finishing ability. Kira has struggled to finish while Fox is fairly elite at it. And I would say Fox is slightly shiftier. I think Kira is a better shooter, or at least projects to be.

Fox has bit more game strength that he plays with, which I think again stems from just how young and early on Kira still is. I think we sell Kira too short in what he can become overall. Wait until that guy is 26 and see what you have.
So, you're trying to project what Kira may be if he gains weight and shoots better to say he compares favorably to Fox? Stretch
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30286 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 10:36 am to
quote:

I mean are you satisfied if all we get out of Fox next year is a 20-5 on 31% from three, bad defense, and questionable iso tendencies? Because that's the player he is now and there is no guarantee he becomes the ideal some imagine for him




well that brings up the point i've been making for a while now. You can't have 3 players averaging 20+ppg. It's rare. Someone has to take a backseat, and we know it won't be Zion. So who from BI or Fox is going to average more like 18ppg instead of 22ppg?
That 3rd guy needs to be happy with scoring 18 a night, not 20+. Zion is going to average over 25ppg, and i can't see BI dipping below 20 but likely right at it, and the more Zion averages, the less those two will.


So do you want to pay $30M+/yr for someone to be the third wheel and score 18ppg and not play great defense for you? McCollum fits that role as well.
It's why Sexton seems like a much better risk to take, although of the 3 i just mentioned, he's probably the worst at being more of a facilitator, which is what you would kind of want with that 3rd guy.


quote:

So it's not just is Fox better than X draft pick, it's is Fox worth giving up the total opportunity cost it takes to bring him in(potentially 2 firsts, a young player, and then a worse or no draft pick this year),


I get that, and as i said, you can't expect much of anythign from any draft pick b/c its such a crap shoot. You know exactly what you have with Fox. If you think he's the missing piece, you without a doubt do it. The question is, is he the missing piece. I don't think he is, but i see a world where it could work, but like you said, it's risky to think he'll change his ways.
Posted by PELsu
Member since Oct 2021
1733 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 10:38 am to
I wasn’t trying to say anything. I was saying exactly what I said. They aren’t that dissimilar in builds, especially considering Kira’s still young age. Otherwise, Fox is obviously a better player. And I think Kira can be a very good player. One that can hit an outside shot and will likely not finish his career at the exact same weight he is today. Was that so crazy?
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 2/4/22 at 10:43 am to
Just so we have some larger context for what risk is involved with Fox:

Fox:
2021-22: $28,103,550.00
2022-23: $30,351,834.00
2023-24: $32,600,118.00
2024-25: $34,848,402.00
2025-26: $37,096,686.00


If all we get out of Fox is slightly better assist numbers and 33% shooting from three(which is up from his shooting this year and career average), Fox will be one of the worst contracts in the league.

It is potentially a lot of assets to consolidate into a player that hasn't really shown a ton of core growth for three seasons now. Especially when more proven, equally good fitting options are out there like McCollum, Sexton, or even going a under-the-radar route and taking to FA and picking up some combo of Tyus jones, Jalen Brunson, and McLemore, keeping our draft pick and then maybe making a smaller move. Building depth and synergy over high risk, high reward all in plays for guys that we have to hope change their core playstyle and skills to make total sense long-term

I'm not outright against Fox if the cost is only a lottery protected first and, say, Hayes + Naw + Sato, but beyond that, I'm not really wanting to risk a worse or no draft pick this year to jumpstart this particular risky experiment.
This post was edited on 2/4/22 at 10:47 am
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