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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
And it's kind of frustrating his lack of energy in that regard because 1.) we ran a switch scheme already and he actually was playing worse. 2.) He doesn't really fricking do a whole lot in the half court so what is his excuse? At least BI/Zion have the excuse that they have to work their arse off to generate offense for the team, Lonzo just sort of coasts and plays defense very mechanically except for rare spurts where you see him get energized.

Basically he takes no pride in it.


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duyp
Member since May 2011
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Being an elite defender is more mental than it is physical.


Agreed. If he had the mentality of Green or one of those small euro guys like campazzo and Neto , he will be an elite defender. But sadly I agree that he won’t become that unless our other guys play with defensive energy or we bring a strong attitude player.


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Lester Earl
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@LesterEarl3
Member since Nov 2003
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

which is much better than Lonzo.


I don’t know who y’all think Brogdon is

What is he much better at?

quote:

I'll wait for you to tell me Lonzo's 3P% to say he's as good a shooter as Duncan and Brogdon.


Lonzo as a Pel last two seasons: .376%

Brogdon 3pt % last two seasons: .364%


Brogdon last few seasons:

19g missed
16g missed
18g missed
34g missed

So pay the oft-injured guy going into his age 29 season a lot of money when you can pay the younger ascending player


Robinson is a better shooter than both. Not paying $20mil for a guy just to shoot tho. Shooting comes too cheaply for that


Epic Cajun
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Lafayette, LA
Member since Feb 2013
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Lonzo as a Pel last two seasons: .376%

Brogdon 3pt % last two seasons: .364%
What types of shots are we talking about though? Most of Lonzo's 3 point shots made are spot up shots that are wide open. I assume Brogdon is taking and making a higher percentage of off the dribble 3's, and 3's with defenders within a closer vicinity.


TeddyPadillac
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Dec 2010
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

What types of shots are we talking about though? Most of Lonzo's 3 point shots made are spot up shots that are wide open. I assume Brogdon is taking and making a higher percentage of off the dribble 3's, and 3's with defenders within a closer vicinity.




don't think you can talk about that. It's not allowed for this argument. No need to talk about Lonzo's ridiculous inconsistency as a shooter either. Only allowed to look at their 3P% as a whole.
As i said, he'd come back and say Lonzo has a better 3P% so he's the better shooter, so Lonzo is better than Brogdon.


Lester Earl
Baylor Fan
@LesterEarl3
Member since Nov 2003
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
Not a ton of difference


Brogdon

C&S last 2 seasons

44%
36%

Pull-up last 2 seasons
34%
30%



Lonzo

C&S

40%
39%


Pull-up

31%
32%




Baron
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Dec 2014
694 posts

re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
Brogdon’s 3p numbers:
18-19: 83% assisted, made 42%
19-20: 45% assisted, made 32%
20-21: 66% assisted, made 38%

Ball:
19-20: 82% assisted, made 37%
20-21: 83% assisted, made 37%

I mean Brogdon has had a 50/40/90 season and led the league in 18-19 in FT%. This isn’t a debate, Brogdon is the better shooter.

*Edit: they are not in the same tier of shooter*

This post was edited on 6/2 at 4:27 pm


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GynoSandberg
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Jan 2006
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
Ball shoots a better % on 246!! more 3PA the last two seasons, but don’t use 3P%



Lester Earl
Baylor Fan
@LesterEarl3
Member since Nov 2003
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
Teddy, first of all, link it up where I said he was a better shooter. When you are done wasting your time looking for that, I want you to make a case that they are not at least in the same tier of shooters. I’m all ears
This post was edited on 6/2 at 4:26 pm


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Lester Earl
Baylor Fan
@LesterEarl3
Member since Nov 2003
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Ball shoots a better % on 246!! more 3PA the last two seasons, but don’t use 3P%


As Teddy said, he knew you’d come back with facts!!


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
I don't know who you think Lonzo is tbh, and unlike many, I'm ok dishing out 15-18 million a year for him. But Brogdon he is not, and based on his trendlines in the league, wont ever be in a lot of valuable ways.

Brogdon is someone that you can pretty much drop on 30 teams and he makes them better because he can basically do everything and mold into whatever you need. He is a solid three level scorer that creates well for others in transition or in the half-court. Moves well off the ball and as a catch and shoot player. Shoots well assissted and unassisted. Can be your primary, secondary, or third creator and do it pretty effectively. Has a really good feel for the game and rarely forces things. Very good defender that can guard 1-3.

Lonzo is a transition PG and does little more in the half court than move the ball around the perimeter and take threes. And even as a catch and shoot guy he still leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn't move off ball as much or as well as you would like, and he forces the issue instead of changing up his approach when his go-to isn't falling. I think this board undersells him as a defender, but it is true he has some glaring problem areas like consistency of effort and getting around screens.

I also love how you always try to blatantly attempt to manipulate data to make the argument you want to be true. Like the ONLY reason you took the last two seasons for Lonzo and Malcolm was because Malcolm had a career low last year and Lonzo has been garbage outside the last two seasons. Brogdon is a remarkably consistent shooter over his career sans one down year, last year. 1200 threes and 39%. I'm fine with conceding that Lonzo has been improving, and thats one of my selling points for re-signing him, but you are the king of cherry picking data.
This post was edited on 6/2 at 4:34 pm


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TeddyPadillac
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Dec 2010
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

What is he much better at?



Pretty much every aspect of basketball on both sides of the court, as well as the mentality part of the sport. Only thing Lonzo does better is throw half court ally oops.


I don't know who you think Lonzo is.



quote:

Lonzo as a Pel last two seasons: .376%

Brogdon 3pt % last two seasons: .364%



Just hilarious how you cherry picked this stat.

Brodgon for his career is 38.6% from 3. 5 season worth. 4 seasons over 38.5%. Last year was an anomaly from 3 for him at 33%
Brodgon Ast/TO is 2.76 for his career, 2.95 the last 2 years.
Lonzo is 2.46 for his career, 2.37 the last 2 years.

Lonzo is averaging 13 points and 6.4 assists and 5.4 rebounds the last 2 years.
Brogdon is averaging 19 points and 6.5 assists and 5.1 rebounds the last 2 seasons.
and everyone knows Brogdon is a much better defender.

Lonzo can't have the ball in his hands late in games. For one, b/c he sucks as an initiator of offense, and a creator of offense, but also, b/c he sucks at free throws. Brogdon can do all of those things, and if this year taught us anything, we need guys that can play winning basketball in the last 3 minutes of games. Lonzo basically becomes a statue the last 3 minutes of games b/c all he can do is sit and wait for a pass to shoot a three, and sometimes he's too scared to shoot it.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
5099 posts
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Just hilarious how you cherry picked this stat.

Brodgon for his career is 38.6% from 3. 5 season worth. 4 seasons over 38.5%. Last year was an anomaly from 3 for him at 33%
Brodgon Ast/TO is 2.76 for his career, 2.95 the last 2 years.
Lonzo is 2.46 for his career, 2.37 the last 2 years.


Glad I'm not the only one noticing another classic Lester confirmation bias cherry pick.

Pick the outlier year of a remarkably consistent shooter and the only two good years of an inconsistent(but improving) one to frame the lesser shooter as better.


southdowns84
LSU Fan
Member since Dec 2009
1135 posts

re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
It’s difficult to find one aspect of Lonzo’s half court game that’s as good as Brogdon.

LE can cherry pick all he wants. Brogdon is a better 3pt shooter, 2 pt shooter, FT shooter, half court facilitator, has a better assist to turnover ratio, and gets to the FT line more often. He’s a better point guard.

Lonzo gets slightly more offensive boards and gets more unguarded open looks.


Baron
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Dec 2014
694 posts

re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Ball shoots a better % on 246!! more 3PA the last two seasons, but don’t use 3P%

As Teddy said, he knew you’d come back with facts!!


I mean, that has more to do with Lonzo playing more in 19-20. If you look at just last year, Brogdon averaged 6.7 3s a game and took 374 total. Ball averaged 8.3 and totaled 455. I think that’s a big enough to compare.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
5099 posts
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Lonzo gets slightly more offensive boards and gets more unguarded open looks.



And Lonzo is less efficient at knocking them down than the unguarded looks Brogdon gets.


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GynoSandberg
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Jan 2006
68079 posts
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay


There’s 2 years and 523 3PA @ 31.5% with this shot





Then there’s 2 years and 850 attempts at 37.6% with this new form


Guess we can be intentionally obtuse if it supports our argument.. reverse cherry picking


southdowns84
LSU Fan
Member since Dec 2009
1135 posts

re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Pretty much every aspect of basketball on both sides of the court, as well as the mentality part of the sport. Only thing Lonzo does better is throw half court ally oops.


He also solves needs specific to the Pelicans. So not only is he better than Ball, he’s also better in areas the Pelicans desperately need to address.


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
5099 posts
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re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

I mean, that has more to do with Lonzo playing more in 19-20. If you look at just last year, Brogdon averaged 6.7 3s a game and took 374 total. Ball averaged 8.3 and totaled 455. I think that’s a big enough to compare.


He is only picking the last two seasons because it is the only way it's possible he can manipulate the data to make Lonzo look like a better shooter.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
5099 posts
 Online 

re: Hypo: Who would you rather pay
quote:

Then there’s 2 years and 850 attempts at 37.6% with this new form


Guess we can be intentionally obtuse if it supports our argument.. reverse cherry picking


Soooooo then Lonzo is still the less efficient shooter if form is the new qualifier.

Brogdon has kept his form and he's 39% on his career with it. Taking tougher shots.

But as I laid out in my long-winded post, it's not three pointers that seperate Lonzo and Brogdon right now, it's all the other skills in his arsenal, and Lonzo's lack of many(or most) of them.
This post was edited on 6/2 at 4:50 pm


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