re: Honest Zion talk for Emotional Intelligent Folks

I tried to make the point amidst all the histrionics yesterday that very likely people were attributing lack of effort and athleticism to what was likely mental adaptation to the league, a second, unfinished, new system, and scheme.

And I think pretty definitely that looks to be the case as we see SVG expanding Zion’s role in the offense and as he gets more comfortable in the league.

As Zion is being encouraged to grab rebounds and go, operate at the top of the arc to drive/dish, or attack the rim, and not just operate mostly out of the low post, and as he has adjusted to passing out of the double team(something it took AD three seasons to really start doing competently) it’s become pretty clear those assumptions about “no longer having it” and “lack of effort/athleticism” look largely misplaced.

Which isn’t to say he won’t have games he struggles, for instance I fully expect the next two games to be rough ones for Zion because the Jazz match up really well against him, but as the season progresses I expect his confidence and ability to execute in this expanded capacity to grow and impress.

While I agree with your general argument, Zion is 20 years old.

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Almost none of the criticisms in this thread had to do with statistics or empirically derived observations though

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Some things can't be quantified in a boxscore.

I can quantify, for example, how poor the team is on defense when Zion is on the court vs when he's off the court. You can't quantify if it's an effort issue, that's literally impossible, but also does not mean it's not an effort issue. It seems like you're trying to say you're correct about something because it can't be found in a statistic, which is a bit silly since you know not everything can be found in a boxscore or statline.

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And in that context, some of the most glaring ones: Zion not putting in effort, not demonstrating around Duke level athleticism, not hustling, not developing offensively, not putting it together defensively, those were all countered pretty notably last night,

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Again, when you specifically point to last night, you are conceding and pointing out that last night was the outlier. Notice how you didn't say what he did last night is what he's been doing all year, because it isn't. What we saw last night is not at all what we've seen out of Zion in the 1st 11 games, you're basically making my point for me by saying look at last night and not saying last night is indicative and how he's played every night.

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and if your argument is something like Zion’s ceiling is much lower now based on him not demonstrating athleticism or offensive progress, which was a common one yesterday, last night’s game puts a sharp knife into the eye of that.

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I know you didn't reply to me, but I'm fairly certain I've never really talked about his ceiling and not saying it's lowered, but I do find it kinda funny that your very first point is about unsubstantiated stats blah blah blah, and now you're talking about something you can't substantiate at all. Seems you're picking and choosing when to disregard something and being a bit hypocritical in turning around and using that same something in your very next paragraph.

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last night’s game puts a sharp knife into the eye of that.

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1 game bro

i hope it continues but NAW almost scored 40 last week. does that one game "put a sharp knife into the eye" of his entire career so far?

of course not

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yeah making it the outlier scenario is kind of, well, saying it was the outlier

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Yea, at this point I really don't know what his point is or how he doesn't see exactly what I've been saying was proven last night.

I(and many obviously) know he has that high energy type of player in him and can do it, and last night shows that. But we also know that's not a side from him we've seen in the 1st 11 games, which is the exact point I've been trying to make and getting called every name in the book by Bronc while he then doesn't realize he's conceding I've been right all along by pointing out the outlier from last night.

You continue to mischaracterize my argument shel, I thought after calming down from last nights Saints loss you wouldnt be pushing this disingenuous framing but you are continuing to do so.

By saying Zion demonstrated a greater level athleticism and hustle doesn’t mean I am conceding that he wasn’t doing those things before. My argument was specifically that what people are characterizing as lack of hustle and athleticism, lack of effort on defense, is not actually so, but the result of scheme and the mental adaptation to the league being mischaracterized, stunting it’s use in the ways we tend to want to see it.

Steven Adams actually said it best today when talking about NAW. The thing is that most of the time young players come into the league and it is very rare for them to be good defenders. Not because they don’t put in the effort but because it requires not just an understanding of more complex systems and defending much, much better players, but that you have to read, react, and anticipate(doubly so when you are a big man that is essentielly tasked with quarterbacking the defense like SVG asks of his bigs) . And good defense requires all of those things to be executed very quick and accurately. And you only really develop that with time and experience. And what looks like someone not putting in effort or being a poor defender to the untrained eye is in fact them just not quite at the level of read and react and anticipation that will only come with time. But that if you see them making the right choices, even if the anticipation isn’t there, and putting in the work, that’s a player you have trust in. And SVG echoed similarity the other day when speaking about the young guys as a whole.

What you saw yesterday(those that actually watched) was the scheme opening up and Zion able to display traits he hadn’t been able to and putting together the read and react well enough to leverage his skills and be a plus defender for the most part(whereas in other games you would see confusion and hesitation, and oftentimes over commitment like closing out on a defender too hard or sticking to his man too much or not shading him to his bad side). By all accounts the effort and desire is there, it just takes time to put it all together. So it’s absurd to be lowering ceilings and making some of the proclamations people are in here based on a 35 game sample size in less than ideal circumstance, especially when nights like last night should hint heavily that many of the assumptions about Zion are flat out incorrect

You don’t engage honesty because you don’t have an honest counter Shel, it’s as simple as that.

It was true last night and continues to be true today.

If you can only argue another person by misreading their points, you don’t have any good ones.

You came into this thread laying bare your unrealistic expectations for Zion(we all anticipated him to come into the league and be a good defender...no, not true, many rightfully believed it would be a seasons long process) then claiming Zion lacked effort defensively.

I brought up the point that I think many people have unrealistic expectation about a 19-20 year old put in a difficult circumstance and based on the development of most raw big men, and that what people are calling lack of effort is not lack of effort, but growing pains in being able to effectively execute on that side of the ball. That you can see examples of this when Zion’s problems defensively, aside from the normal development curve, are often slow reactions or overreactions. A sign of trying too hard or overthinking before reacting.

Last night, where you saw him read and react much better at times, quarterback the defense much more effectively, you therefore saw that energy do what it is meant to do as opposed to not. He didn’t suddenly find new effort, he simply read, reacted, and anticipated much more effectively and the result is his energy was able to be used in physical exertion as opposed to mental paralysis leading to physical hesitation.

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When one of the prevailing arguments being put forth is essentially that said player has permanently lost some sort of physical trait or characteristic and said player goes on to demonstrate that is in fact not the case

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we didn't see this last night

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Then the game comes(that you didn’t watch)

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I did but thanks for playing.

At least you admitted by being unable to answer that your Saints line nonsense was just that, nonsense.

You have nothing for that dumb line, moving along. You're nonsense isn't worth it.