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Started By
Message
re: Graham>Lonzo. And Ingram/Graham as closers
Posted on 12/24/21 at 10:06 am to TigerinATL
Posted on 12/24/21 at 10:06 am to TigerinATL
If you’re going all in on point Zion, I can see him replacing Graham as a starter. It’s not like DG is some huge facilitator, anyway.
That said, he has developed some good two man chemistry with BI and JV that generates good looks. That would be valuable off the bench.
That said, he has developed some good two man chemistry with BI and JV that generates good looks. That would be valuable off the bench.
1
Posted on 12/24/21 at 10:16 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:
1. I think you’re kind of abusing the word “elite”.
2. Comparing him to Buddy or Duncan Robinson is completely disingenuous. They’re shooting different shots.
We’ve gone over the advanced stats ad nauseum in other threads, Lonzo takes on some of the toughest defensive assignments in the league according to tracking data and performs near the top in terms of guarding them relative to other tough defensive assignments defenders, he led the team in DPM his time here while taking on the toughest assignments defensively.
And as was the case here, Lonzo improves year over year, while his pull up shooting was a major weakness last year, this year he is shooting 41% on pull up threes.
Again, you can argue he isn’t the piece you want for a championship run, but he’s definitely a much better asset than Temple/Sato, gonna help you win more games than them, and was a much better use of 20 mil than us trying to throw 22 million at Tim Hardaway, who has gotten pushed out of the starting lineup this season.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 10:24 am to TotesMcGotes
Graham is a 6th man. He's starting now, but he's not a long term solution for what the Pels need (and he's not being paid for that) w/ Zion: a legit half court creator also comfortable off ball.
Lonzo, while clearly a better player overall, doesn't solve that problem either, didn't want to be in NO, and he costs $40m more. Sometimes it's addition by subtraction
Lonzo, while clearly a better player overall, doesn't solve that problem either, didn't want to be in NO, and he costs $40m more. Sometimes it's addition by subtraction
Posted on 12/24/21 at 10:27 am to Bronc
quote:
And as was the case here, Lonzo improves year over year, while his pull up shooting was a major weakness last year, this year he is shooting 41% on pull up threes.
lol he’s making the exact same amount per game this year as he did last year, which is fewer than 1 made per game. He’s just shooting .5 less of them this season. Is that some substantial improvement?
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:I feel like this doesn't get discussed enough around here.
The biggest problem with the Zo trade is that CHI couldn't have signed him if we didn't facilitate, so how in the ever living frick do you get negative value when you have all the leverage?
People constantly point out that we could have just matched, but we never had to decide to match or not, the matching thing that everyone talks about is completely irrelevant.
They couldn't even make the offer without our help. If the offer wasn't to our liking, we just don't make the trade, CHI can't sign him at all, and Lonzo keeps shopping himself around to a new team for a new deal or CHI increases the assets they're offering. None of it makes any sense whatsoever to get a Sato/Temple/2nd return...none of it.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:11 am to shel311
Agree 100%. It's like we went out of our way to help trade Lonzo to Chicago. I've heard some say that we wanted to get contracts back that we could eventually trade, but that doesn't make sense to me because we could just have salary cap space instead.
I'm still completely perplexed that you can trade AD, Lonzo and Jrue and still not have any cap space.
I'm still completely perplexed that you can trade AD, Lonzo and Jrue and still not have any cap space.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:19 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:
lol he’s making the exact same amount per game this year as he did last year, which is fewer than 1 made per game. He’s just shooting .5 less of them this season. Is that some substantial improvement?
What are you talking about?
He shot 31% on pull up threes last season, this year it’s 41%. He’s held around steady at 42% on catch and shoot.
Not sure how that is a knock on Lonzo? He’s the fourth/fifth option in Chicago, improving efficiency, defense, and expanding his shooting skills with improved pull ups, which with Val in the fold would be his role here. Same would have been true for Tim Hardaway, who is playing terrible but we wanted to pay MORE to come here than Lonzo.
But larger point still is, you don’t trade away a player like Lonzo for negative value when you control his future. And it’s those errors in GM’ing that has the Pels where they currently are.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:27 am to Bronc
He made 0.8/2.4 on pull up threes last year. This year he’s making 0.8/1.9 on pull up threes.
So, making the same amount per game, just shooting .5 fewer per game.
So, making the same amount per game, just shooting .5 fewer per game.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:32 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I agree with you that keeping Zo for the trade chip alone was worth matching the salary. Lots of emotional thinkers on here convinced themselves that we'd never be able to trade him on a market deal, because they were scorned lovers upset he didn't want to be here.
Not only did we get negative value for Ball, Griff bent over when we had all the leverage. But when the market dried up Griff went scrambling and tried to get Lauri M, bulls played hard ball and wanted a first.
We could have really used Lauri this year to fill Zions spot. But how bad would Griff have looked giving the bulls a first for Lauri after only getting a 2nd for Ball smh……
Who wouldn’t take Lauri right now at 14 mill to what we got in Sato/Temple for the same price.
This post was edited on 12/24/21 at 11:39 am
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:42 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:
He made 0.8/2.4 on pull up threes last year. This year he’s making 0.8/1.9 on pull up threes. So, making the same amount per game, just shooting .5 fewer per game.
It’s called improving efficiency, it’s something you hope to see out of young players. His usage has dropped to what it was his rookie season but he is maintaining almost identical output through improved efficiency. And his team is second in the East. That’s not a bad thing…
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:45 am to SlowFlowPro
Exactly. People are really weird on here. They are making it a Graham vs Lonzo thing. That’s not even the debate. The debate is 1 nba level guard versus having 2 nba level guards. We’d be the 4 or 5 seed right now with a Lonzo level player next to Graham right now. It’s not even that Lonzo is perfect or that great, but him getting 35 mins instead of NAW, Sato, Kira, Temple is a huge difference in determining wins and losses.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:46 am to Townedrunkard
quote:
Who wouldn’t take Lauri right now at 14 mill to what we got in Sato/Temple for the same price.
Reminds me a lot of what happened with Demps and Ryno/Gordon.
Reports after the fact came out stating teams were offering late firsts for them, but Demps let his ego get in the way and as a result played himself out of getting anything. As they just walked in FA and trashed the team on the way out.
In this case it’s much worse because you literally controlled Lonzo’s future so you have all the leverage.
This post was edited on 12/24/21 at 11:50 am
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:48 am to shel311
Stop making sense Shel. That’s not allowed here. We are supposed to blindly worship whatever path a bottom 5 NBA front office man David Griffin decides to take and accept it as gospel.
Fact is Griff got pushed around. For whatever reason it hurts people to accept that so they don’t and instead they try to find ways to justify the decision by taking shots at Lonzo.
Fact is Griff got pushed around. For whatever reason it hurts people to accept that so they don’t and instead they try to find ways to justify the decision by taking shots at Lonzo.
This post was edited on 12/24/21 at 11:50 am
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:49 am to 3PieceSpicy
quote:
Exactly. People are really weird on here. They are making it a Graham vs Lonzo thing. That’s not even the debate. The debate is 1 nba level guard versus having 2 nba level guards. We’d be the 4 or 5 seed right now with a Lonzo level player next to Graham right now. It’s not even that Lonzo is perfect or that great, but him getting 35 mins instead of NAW, Sato, Kira, Temple is a huge difference in determining wins and losses.
As a secondary consequence, probably makes Hart a 6th man of the year contender with Tyler Herro.
This team would be in the play in right now for sure though.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:50 am to Bronc
No one is arguing that it’s bad. It’s just funny to argue that it’s statistically significant.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:51 am to TotesMcGotes
The sample size is large enough at this point that we can say it’s an improvement on efficiency
Posted on 12/24/21 at 11:53 am to Bronc
I disagree, but I also don’t really care to argue with you because it’s tiresome.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 2:14 pm to Bronc
quote:
And as was the case here, Lonzo improves year over year, while his pull up shooting was a major weakness last year, this year he is shooting 41% on pull up threes.
And yet, through this point last year we were 14-19 with healthy Zion and BI. We are 12-21 this year, Zion hasn’t played a minute and BI has missed 8 of those games.
Lonzo straight up was a horrible fit. He did not make us better. He fits better with the Bulls, congrats to him and them. Graham is a better fit here for less money
Posted on 12/24/21 at 3:24 pm to 3PieceSpicy
quote:
We’d be the 4 or 5 seed right now with a Lonzo level player next to Graham right now.
Why are you acting like Lonzo wasn't here for 2 years and we sucked with him. His first year here we had Jrue, his second year Zion was healthy to start the year and will still sucked with Zo on the team.
Zo is the exact same player for the Bulls as he was here the biggest difference is he is on a 4 year deal at 20 mill a year. This team needs a guard to run the offense that can get in the lane Zo doesn't fix that.
Posted on 12/24/21 at 3:27 pm to Not Cooper
So what you are saying is if BI was healthy and we won 3 more games, we would have surpassed the Zo “led” Pels and we would have done it without Zion.
Obviously Zo is the missing piece…
Obviously Zo is the missing piece…
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