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re: .
Posted on 5/13/13 at 7:14 pm to bobbyray21
Posted on 5/13/13 at 7:14 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
The Verve had negotiated a license to use the oldham cover. The Stones won on the ground that the song used "too much". Complete BS. Absolutely indefensible. I mean, they were found to have infringed a copyright that they had a license to use. Nonsense.
So, in the end Mick Jagger and Keith Richards got both (a) songwriting credits and (b) 100% royalties off "Bittersweet Symphony" because it took "too much" of a cover version of a Rolling Stones song. And this is true despite the fact that The Verve had a license to use the Oldham cover and the Stones' song "The Last Time" sounds absolutely nothing like "Bittersweet Symphony".
The Verve must have had the worst lawyers on the planet.
1
Posted on 5/13/13 at 7:14 pm to Geaux1997
The 5 greatest rock albums which happen to all be double albums..
Beatles - White Album
Jimi - Electric Ladyland
LZ - Physical Graffitti
Pink Floyd - The Wall
The Clash - London Calling
Beatles - White Album
Jimi - Electric Ladyland
LZ - Physical Graffitti
Pink Floyd - The Wall
The Clash - London Calling
Posted on 5/13/13 at 7:51 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
Last week, Ashcroft complained to MTV News that the sample was only a small part of the background, but could not be easily removed. "I was in a position (where) if I took it out, even though it's subliminal, this subliminal can be important, so I was in a no-win situation."
The Verve's label also told MTV News the sample Ashcroft used was "barely audible."
if the licensing arrangement was over a small snippet of the Oldham track, thats one thing. the actual sample of the actual Oldham track is probably low in the mix in the background somewhere. i dont know, havent listened for it.
to re-record the melody and use that as the basis of your track is another. i think thats where the "too much" came in.
doesnt matter how much it sounded like the stones song, the Oldham song was credited as a cover to the stones.
abko sued, and own the stones 60s stuff. they may have the credit, but i doubt keith and mick saw a penny from the deal anyway.
Posted on 5/13/13 at 9:42 pm to cigsmcgee
quote:
if the licensing arrangement was over a small snippet of the Oldham track, thats one thing. the actual sample of the actual Oldham track is probably low in the mix in the background somewhere. i dont know, havent listened for it.
to re-record the melody and use that as the basis of your track is another. i think thats where the "too much" came in.
Here is the Oldham track: Andrew Oldham Orchestra - The Last Time
If you listen up till about the 1:50 mark you'll hear the sample. And there is no question that the sample forms the basis for "Bittersweet Symphony". BUT THEY NEGOTIATED A LICENSE TO USE THAT SAMPLE. Ashcroft is then allowed to use that sample as he sees fit. The fact that he built the song around it is irrelevant. If "extent of use" were actually a consideration then Puff Daddy would have had to give away the rights to every song he ever made.
Ashcroft's statements about the sample being a small part of the song are ridiculous. It's a huge part of the song. But that really shouldn't have mattered.
I can't help but wonder if The Stones won this case simply because they were The Stones.
quote:
(1)
doesnt matter how much it sounded like the stones song, the Oldham song was credited as a cover to the stones.
(2)
abko sued, and own the stones 60s stuff. they may have the credit, but i doubt keith and mick saw a penny from the deal anyway.
(1)
I understand that. But it just made for inequitable result.
(2)
Keith and Mick saw millions and millions.*
A few more things, it wasn't Keith Richards and Mick Jagger pursuing this lawsuit. It was Allen Klein. I'm not saying Jagger and Richards are bad guys, I'm just saying they were unjustly enriched.
The Oldham "cover" shouldn't have been characterized as a cover. It's a completely different work. If it hadn't been characterized as a cover, then at least the correct people would have been financially compensated.
*Most arrangements between artist and record company give the artist 50% of the royalties.
This post was edited on 5/13/13 at 9:49 pm
Posted on 5/13/13 at 10:47 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
The Oldham "cover" shouldn't have been characterized as a cover. It's a completely different work.
Oldhams is like a half-speed version of the riff, but i generally agree with you.
allen klein (abkco) is without doubt one of the most notorious aholes in the long list of industry aholes. the case being associated with the stones i bet had little effect, but was all kleins legendary aholery.
however, like you said about diddy, you dont see him losing tons of money from lawsuits like these, but that could be he has better lawyers, or better agreements on the licensing, or just never did business with abkco.
aschcrofts statements arent ridiculous, and in a way he was right. the literal track, the oldham sample, was one track on a huge layered multitrack that built around the progression. if he had been upfront (and maybe he was, but he sure didnt get a solid agreement or he wouldnt have been sued) then
quote:
at least the correct people would have been financially compensated.
he could have credited the song as a cover, arranged/lyrics by aschcroft or something, and prob gotten a nice cut. instead, perhaps through naivety, he got crushed by the once-biggest ball buster in music history.
Posted on 5/13/13 at 11:47 pm to cigsmcgee
quote:
he could have credited the song as a cover, arranged/lyrics by aschcroft or something, and prob gotten a nice cut. instead, perhaps through naivety, he got crushed by the once-biggest ball buster in music history
This is it. And I need to back off my previous statement about the court favoring The Stones. This case never went to court. Had this case gone to court, I firmly believe The Verve would have either won, or the judge would have given the The Stones at most a partial piece of the pie.
The fact that The Verve just settled says to me that they were scared of Klein and also that they didn't want the negative PR of being in a legal battle with music legends. But this is why you have a lawyer. You let them negotiate it, and if it needs to go to trial, so be it. Let the lawyers do their thing.
The fact that the settlement agreement was so wildly lopsided suggests to me that the Verve either didn't have a lawyer at all, or they had the worst lawyer on Earth.
This post was edited on 5/13/13 at 11:49 pm
Posted on 5/14/13 at 1:05 am to TigerTailsSoup
quote:
LZ - Physical Graffitti
Posted on 5/14/13 at 8:04 am to The Dudes Rug
*These are some of my personal faves that I could listen to start to finish anytime without being sick of it ever
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Pink Floyd - Dark Side
Metallica - Kill Em All
STP - Core
Deftones - White Pony
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Pink Floyd - Dark Side
Metallica - Kill Em All
STP - Core
Deftones - White Pony
Posted on 5/14/13 at 8:59 am to cigsmcgee
quote:Who originally wrote that part? I have not read much at all on this.
its a cover of a cover of a cover.
Posted on 5/14/13 at 4:20 pm to cigsmcgee
Maybe the Verve should have come up with their own melody/music. This wouldn't be an issue if they had.
Posted on 5/14/13 at 4:25 pm to Chitter Chatter
Who gives a frick? The Verve don't belong in a top 5 anything anyway.
Posted on 5/14/13 at 4:26 pm to bobbyray21
Foo Fighters- Colour and The Shape
Zeppelin 4
Tool - Aenima
Boston - Boston
Nirvana - Nevermind
Zeppelin 4
Tool - Aenima
Boston - Boston
Nirvana - Nevermind
Posted on 5/14/13 at 4:44 pm to HeadyBrosevelt
quote:
Who gives a frick? The Verve don't belong in a top 5 anything anyway.
preach on brother
Posted on 5/14/13 at 8:38 pm to Geaux1997
Abbey Road - The Beatles
Hwy 61 Revisited - Bob Dylan
The Doors - The Doors
Animals - Pink Floyd
Are You Experienced - Jimi Hendrix Experience
Hwy 61 Revisited - Bob Dylan
The Doors - The Doors
Animals - Pink Floyd
Are You Experienced - Jimi Hendrix Experience
Posted on 5/14/13 at 9:25 pm to brewhan davey
quote:
Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin IV
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
Pearl Jam - Ten
Nirvana - Nevermind
The Doors - The Doors
Excellent choices! Have I told you lately that I love you?
I'd probably replace DSOTM with The Wall (it holds an oddly special place in my heart).
I also LOVE Weezer's Blue album.
Posted on 5/14/13 at 10:37 pm to bobbyray21
Not in order
The Who: Who's Next
Led Zeppelin: II
Beatles: Rubber Soul
Richard Hell & Voidoids: Blank Generation
King Crimson: In the Court of the Crimson King
Jeez only five???
The Who: Who's Next
Led Zeppelin: II
Beatles: Rubber Soul
Richard Hell & Voidoids: Blank Generation
King Crimson: In the Court of the Crimson King
Jeez only five???
Posted on 5/15/13 at 1:34 pm to HeadyBrosevelt
quote:
Who gives a frick? The Verve don't belong in a top 5 anything anyway.
Who wants to bet baggadix hasn't heard the album?
Posted on 5/15/13 at 1:52 pm to Chitter Chatter
quote:
Maybe the Verve should have come up with their own melody/music. This wouldn't be an issue if they had.
Maybe we should create a list of songs that include samples from other songs. Maybe we should see how long that list gets. Maybe we should consider how sampling should work in a perfect world as viewed from a utilitarian perspective.
1. The Verve actually licensed a sample.
2. The Verve built upon that sample and made a great song -- an objectively superior song to the one from which they took the sample.
3. Thank you Richard Ashcroft for expanding upon something that already existed to make something even better. You have enriched my life, good sir.
4. Everybody wins.
5. Now get off Chitter Chatter's lawn.
Posted on 5/15/13 at 2:01 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
Who originally wrote that part? I have not read much at all on this.
1. The Stones wrote a song that was "covered" by the Oldham Orchestra.
2. The Oldham cover sounds nothing like The Stones song.
3. The Verve used a sample from the Oldham track
4. And they made a popular track.
5. Popular tracks make lotsa money
6. In swoops Allen Klein, The Stone's lawyer.
7. 100% of the money from The Verve song ends up going to Richards, Jagger, and Klein.
8. 0% to Oldham
9. 0% to Ashcroft.
10. The Verve song and The Stones song sound nothing alike.
The End.
This post was edited on 5/15/13 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 5/15/13 at 2:06 pm to bobbyray21
bobbyray, WHO GIVES A SHITE
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