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re: Wonder Woman Tomatometer Watch Thread (219 reviews; 93%; 7.6/10) [NO SPOILERS]
Posted on 5/16/17 at 8:44 am to Fewer Kilometers
Posted on 5/16/17 at 8:44 am to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
But honestly, if it was a "borderline mess", we'd have heard the warnings that we'd heard about Suicide Squad and BvS.
The lack of information from the trailers, generally positive opinions coming out of viewings, and very little information pre-release has my expectations rising. I just hope DC doesn't completely eat me this time, because I went in with 0 expectations on BvS and SS... but this one I'm actually starting to get excited about
DON'T DO IT DC, DON'T DO IT!!!
0
Posted on 5/16/17 at 8:51 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Ding ding ding. I still haven't seen a person on this board who wants DC to fail and Marvel to succeed on the flip side. More likely there are people who want DC and Marvel films to fail because "too many comic book movies."
When I rolled into Iron Man, I honestly had very little idea who the frick he was as a character. Unless you were an avid comic reader, Iron Man had no real cultural dent. The reason the MCU took off was because they cast the role perfectly and Favreau made a really wonderful movie.
And that was with a character almost no one really knew anything about.
There was ZERO reason WB could not have gone full steam ahead with their own universe and done so almost flawlessly. Truth is, the hard part of whetting the appetite for these movies was already done by Marvel. But...WB had no interest in being seen as following the Marvel road map so they wen too far too fast AND hired a guy that has always been better with flash over story to be their architect AND changed the core of Superman enough to piss off many true Superman fans. They could have easily rebooted Superman, moved on to a solo Batman film, come back for a sequel to Superman, then a Flash...maybe a reboot of Green Lantern and the whole time be building towards Justice League.
Nope...we get Death of Superman ANNNNNNND Dark Knight Rises...in the same movie, right off the bat before they even show that anyone actually fricking LIKES superman! In fact, much of the movie is spent showing how much people distrust him.
I want to like them...I wanted to. I haven't, but it's on them, not me. This should have been the easiest thing on the world, and instead they've almost gone out of their way to alienate the actual fan base.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 9:00 am to GeauxTigerTM
A hot chick kicking arse is like Giant robots kicking monsters arse. Not much of a story needed.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 9:13 am to RollTide1987
We've seen all this before with DC. Great trailers, great reactions from screenings by fans and a few critics, over hyped tweets, only for the movie to come out and be a complete disaster. I refuse to get over hyped for this shite anymore. I want it to be good and I hope it is, but none of this means anything until the embargo is lifted and the movie is released.
I will just never understand how WB could frick up so badly on such a cash cow of a product that also happens to be my favorite fictional characters. If they screw this movie up, whatever hope and optimism I have left will all but diminish. It would almost defy logic if they were to frick up three times in a row (four for those who didn't like Man of Steel), but somehow I wouldn't be surprised.
I will just never understand how WB could frick up so badly on such a cash cow of a product that also happens to be my favorite fictional characters. If they screw this movie up, whatever hope and optimism I have left will all but diminish. It would almost defy logic if they were to frick up three times in a row (four for those who didn't like Man of Steel), but somehow I wouldn't be surprised.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:13 am to abellsujr
quote:
I will just never understand how WB could frick up so badly on such a cash cow of a product that also happens to be my favorite fictional characters
Let's be honest...this is really the point most people who have complained about these movies have been trying to make.
Hell...as a guy in my late 30's I used to stay up at night to watch reruns of Justice League and JLU on Cartoon Network because the stories and characters were so damn good. I love these guys, and as soon as Marvel started making really fun, entertaining movies with their guys (many of whom I was not super familiar with) I started getting excited because it meant we were gonna get the guys I REALLY wanted to see done as well!!!! Not that I didn't love the Nolanvere of Batman movies, but I really craved to see them done closer to their comic origins and less real world crime drama than Nolan went.
Instead, we got Snyder's melodramatic, colorwashed, dour, brooding, over CGI'd mess for the Superman reboot and their idiotic idea of a mashup of Death and Returns and whatever the flying frick Suicide Squad turned out to be.
It's not my fault I'm skeptical, at best, when it comes to WW.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 11:15 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
When I rolled into Iron Man, I honestly had very little idea who the frick he was as a character. Unless you were an avid comic reader, Iron Man had no real cultural dent. The reason the MCU took off was because they cast the role perfectly and Favreau made a really wonderful movie.
And that was with a character almost no one really knew anything about.
There was ZERO reason WB could not have gone full steam ahead with their own universe and done so almost flawlessly. Truth is, the hard part of whetting the appetite for these movies was already done by Marvel. But...WB had no interest in being seen as following the Marvel road map so they wen too far too fast AND hired a guy that has always been better with flash over story to be their architect AND changed the core of Superman enough to piss off many true Superman fans. They could have easily rebooted Superman, moved on to a solo Batman film, come back for a sequel to Superman, then a Flash...maybe a reboot of Green Lantern and the whole time be building towards Justice League.
Nope...we get Death of Superman ANNNNNNND Dark Knight Rises...in the same movie, right off the bat before they even show that anyone actually fricking LIKES superman! In fact, much of the movie is spent showing how much people distrust him.
I want to like them...I wanted to. I haven't, but it's on them, not me. This should have been the easiest thing on the world, and instead they've almost gone out of their way to alienate the actual fan base.
I've long said that the biggest different between the two properties is that Marvel/Feige embrace the origin of their stories, while Snyder/DC seem ashamed of it.
And while a different perspective is ok, see Nolanverse, Snyder is not Nolan and lacks the expertise to handle it.
Feige blatantly wants to make comic books for the screen, this is why criticisms of "death doesn't matter in the MCU," "it's cheesy," "it's cartoony," etc. are valid criticisms, but also easily forgiven or understood. They are playing by comic book rules, for the good and the bad.
Snyder has actively tried to make something "more than" comic books. This is evident in his presentation of Superman. Superman can't be perfect (which, you know, is the driving force of the entire character). He has to be deeply flawed, because for Snyder, that's the only way to get "more real," outside of more greys and blues. To Snyder, it's quite clear that Superman isn't interesting as is, and that then drove everything else in the universe - Luthor, Origins, Storylines, etc. I will say he put Miller's Bruce on screen pretty much as is, but that's because Batman already speaks to him as a "more real character" because Batman's deep flaws are part of his origin. He literally wears them.
Honestly, I think if Snyder made a full Batman movie, and got rid of Goyer, we'd be having a completely different discussion now.
This post was edited on 5/16/17 at 11:19 am
Posted on 5/16/17 at 11:33 am to Freauxzen
quote:
I've long said that the biggest different between the two properties is that Marvel/Feige embrace the origin of their stories, while Snyder/DC seem ashamed of it.
It's astonishing, really. Of course, this was the problem with handing the keys to Snyder and not having a guy like Bruce Timm overseeing the entire build from the beginning, ensuring that the characters as they are loved are what ends up on screen in some fashion.
quote:
And while a different perspective is ok, see Nolanverse, Snyder is not Nolan and lacks the expertise to handle it.
True. That being said, I think that worked great for Batman. Superman would not really work that way I think. Not saying Nolan could not have done it, just that the universe he built for his Batman movies would not work with a superhuman alien.
quote:
Feige blatantly wants to make comic books for the screen, this is why criticisms of "death doesn't matter in the MCU," "it's cheesy," "it's cartoony," etc. are valid criticisms, but also easily forgiven or understood. They are playing by comic book rules, for the good and the bad.
Yep.
quote:
Snyder has actively tried to make something "more than" comic books.
It's nauseating. The music bed behind the Martha scene and the final battle with Doomsday is almost laughable in it's full of itself grandiosity. It's practically an opera.
quote:
Honestly, I think if Snyder made a full Batman movie, and got rid of Goyer, we'd be having a completely different discussion now.
Much like Watchmen, Batman would be more in his wheelhouse in terms of tone, so yeah. WB could not have picked a worse director to reboot Superman, and in term kick off their universe. Either everything needs to pivot with Wonder Woman, or the whole thing is kind of doomed to be weighted down by the heavy handedness of Snyder's take on things from MoS.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 12:58 pm to abellsujr
quote:
I refuse to get over hyped for this shite anymore. I want it to be good and I hope it is, but none of this means anything until the embargo is lifted and the movie is released.
Just have low expectations for this and JL. Remember, the wheels were already in motion for both these films before the BvS debacle. I'm not expecting much of anything. Moving forward, however, I'm expecting big things from Wan's Aquaman, Reeves Batman, and all the other films coming up.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:02 pm to RLDSC FAN
6 pages and no actual twitter or critic reviews
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:19 pm to RLDSC FAN
It's a shame that I have to sit here and say "Well, just wait a couple of movies. It will be OK."
"Just wait for BvS, it will fix all of MoS's problems"
"Just wait for SS. It will be fun and colorful. Unlike BvS."
It's always "Wait till next time" with DC. In the meantime, I have to sit here and watch my favorite characters get butchered. I just hope JL makes enough money to ensure the entire building doesn't collapse.
"Just wait for BvS, it will fix all of MoS's problems"
"Just wait for SS. It will be fun and colorful. Unlike BvS."
It's always "Wait till next time" with DC. In the meantime, I have to sit here and watch my favorite characters get butchered. I just hope JL makes enough money to ensure the entire building doesn't collapse.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:25 pm to abellsujr
After two stinkers, DC has run out of good will with me. I'm sure other consumers feel the same.
What kind of box office numbers are they predicting for WW?
What kind of box office numbers are they predicting for WW?
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:31 pm to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
What kind of box office numbers are they predicting for WW?
I think it does 600 million WW. If it turns out really good it'll do much more. The hype is there for it.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:32 pm to StrongBackWeakMind
WW only had a budget of 100 mil so it doesn't have to do massive numbers to be considered a success. What IS important is the reviews and overall acceptance of the film.
JL is the more important movie when it comes to how much profit it makes.
JL is the more important movie when it comes to how much profit it makes.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:54 pm to RollTide1987
I have been as brutal as anyone regarding the DCU movies.
BvS was a boring mess.
SS had a plot that made no sense. . .and they turned The fricking Joker into a sappy romantic.
I even brutalized the casting of rail-thin Gadot as THE Amazon.
I have made many posts that I will not rehash here regarding those properties.
But WW looks like it is going to be solid action fare. I am getting excited. I think some here are sold on hating it, sight unseen.
BvS was a boring mess.
SS had a plot that made no sense. . .and they turned The fricking Joker into a sappy romantic.
I even brutalized the casting of rail-thin Gadot as THE Amazon.
I have made many posts that I will not rehash here regarding those properties.
But WW looks like it is going to be solid action fare. I am getting excited. I think some here are sold on hating it, sight unseen.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 1:57 pm to abellsujr
quote:
It's always "Wait till next time" with DC. In the meantime, I have to sit here and watch my favorite characters get butchered. I just hope JL makes enough money to ensure the entire building doesn't collapse.
Or better yet..."The movie makes total sense...in the director's cut."
Posted on 5/16/17 at 2:07 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Pretty much. 
Posted on 5/16/17 at 2:13 pm to Freauxzen
To Snyder, it's quite clear that Superman isn't interesting as is, and that then drove everything else in the universe
Well, Superman isn't very interesting. Is it really surprising, though, that a superhero created by two unsophisticated teenagers in the 1930s is a terrible dramatic character? (Actually, the 1930s era Superman would be a better than the ridiculously OPed character he has been morphed into over the years.) His invulnerability and near omnipotence renders every other person on screen damn near irrelevant.
One of the defenders of the faith of all things Superman on this board admitted as much on here by stating that the introduction of Kryptonite into the Supes world is just lazy writing. In effect, "No, no, no, kryptonite isn't the way to defeat Superman. That IS boring. What you have to do is make him choose. Put him in a moral dilemma - save Lois or save the bus load of orphans. THAT'S the way to defeat Superman!" So, now we're up to a whopping two ways that Superman can be bested. Limitless dramatic possibilities there...
I thought Man of Steel was good precisely because a fairly wooden character was fleshed out, as well as the ramifications of his presence in our society.
Well, Superman isn't very interesting. Is it really surprising, though, that a superhero created by two unsophisticated teenagers in the 1930s is a terrible dramatic character? (Actually, the 1930s era Superman would be a better than the ridiculously OPed character he has been morphed into over the years.) His invulnerability and near omnipotence renders every other person on screen damn near irrelevant.
One of the defenders of the faith of all things Superman on this board admitted as much on here by stating that the introduction of Kryptonite into the Supes world is just lazy writing. In effect, "No, no, no, kryptonite isn't the way to defeat Superman. That IS boring. What you have to do is make him choose. Put him in a moral dilemma - save Lois or save the bus load of orphans. THAT'S the way to defeat Superman!" So, now we're up to a whopping two ways that Superman can be bested. Limitless dramatic possibilities there...
I thought Man of Steel was good precisely because a fairly wooden character was fleshed out, as well as the ramifications of his presence in our society.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 2:26 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Is it really surprising, though, that a superhero created by two unsophisticated teenagers in the 1930s is a terrible dramatic character?
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 2:43 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Well, Superman isn't very interesting. Is it really surprising, though, that a superhero created by two unsophisticated teenagers in the 1930s is a terrible dramatic character? (Actually, the 1930s era Superman would be a better than the ridiculously OPed character he has been morphed into over the years.) His invulnerability and near omnipotence renders every other person on screen damn near irrelevant.
One of the defenders of the faith of all things Superman on this board admitted as much on here by stating that the introduction of Kryptonite into the Supes world is just lazy writing. In effect, "No, no, no, kryptonite isn't the way to defeat Superman. That IS boring. What you have to do is make him choose. Put him in a moral dilemma - save Lois or save the bus load of orphans. THAT'S the way to defeat Superman!" So, now we're up to a whopping two ways that Superman can be bested. Limitless dramatic possibilities there...
Like any comic book character in existence, there are good runs of Superman and bad runs. Good arcs, bad arcs. This has happened for 80 years. Nobody has said, "Go back to this one specific Superman that I really enjoy!" But there is a core to Superman. It doesn't have to do with his "weaknesses," or even his level of power (there are times when he's ore and less powerful), it's a combination of a lot of things that make him a specific kind of moral lens for most of DC.
Snyder didn't hit that core. That was the problem. His interpretation of the character was just too far removed from what makes Superman tick. (And FWIW, I'm not a big Superman fan. He's alright. But regardless of my feeling, he's super important and one superhero you shouldn't change drastically). If you want to completely change Blue Beetle, go for it. There have already been different version. If you want a different kind of Superman - there's Clone, Cyborg, Superboy, Steel, etc. Plenty of different iterations that are more flexible.
quote:
I thought Man of Steel was good precisely because a fairly wooden character was fleshed out, as well as the ramifications of his presence in our society.
But Snyder didn't really explore those ramifications. That's a bigger discussion not meant for the thread.
And Superman is far from wooden. He's the moral glue for DC. Like Cap is for Marvel (or was).
This post was edited on 5/16/17 at 2:45 pm
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