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re: Unforgiven - was Little Bill pretty much in the right?
Posted on 7/15/18 at 10:52 am to Tiger Voodoo
Posted on 7/15/18 at 10:52 am to Tiger Voodoo
Scott Eastwood as Will
Michael B. Jordan as Ned
Benedict Cumberbatch as English Bob
And maybe Walton Goggins as Little Bill?
Michael B. Jordan as Ned
Benedict Cumberbatch as English Bob
And maybe Walton Goggins as Little Bill?
2
Posted on 7/15/18 at 10:52 am to Zap Rowsdower
quote:
And that never would have happened had Bill gotten the bullwhip out, put him in jail, actually pushed for a trial, etc. anything but that lighter sentence. That’s the point I was making in my original post in the thread.
While agree Bill was too light on them, that doesn’t justify the reaction of the whores, especially rejecting the horse the guy wanted to give to her, even though they weren’t required to.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 10:59 am to H-Town Tiger
Yeah the whores did overreact, but that doesn’t change the fact that it all got started because Bill didn’t do his job. Do your job, give a sentence that fits the crime (like one poster said earlier it could have actually been considered attempted murder) and the bounty doesn’t happen.
But that does beg the question. As mad as the whores got and to jump straight to putting a bounty out, did Little Bill have a history of letting this kind of stuff happen and this was the straw that broke the whore’s back? Could be a possibility as to why they decided that killing was justified.
But that does beg the question. As mad as the whores got and to jump straight to putting a bounty out, did Little Bill have a history of letting this kind of stuff happen and this was the straw that broke the whore’s back? Could be a possibility as to why they decided that killing was justified.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:07 am to rebelrouser
quote:I think Munny would have agreed with H-Town.
Trying to put the white hat on Eastwood and the black hat on Hackman misses the point of the movie.
Munny knew he was the bad guy, and Little Bill was the good guy. He killed Little Bill for revenge over the killing of his partner and fellow bad guy.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:11 am to Methuselah
Bill was on the right side, but doing it wrong. That’s what’s so awesome about the movie. The lines of right and wrong are totally blurred.
Little Bill’s biggest mistake was surrounding himself with idiots. That and he wasn’t a cold killer like William Munney, he was just a bully. A cold blooded killer would’ve just plugged Munney once he started aiming at the bar owner.
Little Bill’s biggest mistake was surrounding himself with idiots. That and he wasn’t a cold killer like William Munney, he was just a bully. A cold blooded killer would’ve just plugged Munney once he started aiming at the bar owner.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:14 am to Zap Rowsdower
quote:
Scott Eastwood as Will
Tyler James Williams as Ned
Ewan MacGregor as English Bob
Karl Urban as Little Bill?
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:14 am to Roaad
quote:
I think Munny would have agreed with H-Town.
Munny knew he was the bad guy, and Little Bill was the good guy. He killed Little Bill for revenge over the killing of his partner and fellow bad gu
I don’t think anyone is saying that Bill=Bad and Will=Good. I mean Will was, by all accounts a murdering POS whose closest thing to compassion was letting the other cowboys bring the gun shot one water and warning the town folk not to cut up anymore whores. We’re just saying Little Bill wasn’t completely in the right and not some hardened bad arse willing to do anything for justice. He’s like a lot of local sheriffs today and tried playing the politician to make both sides happy after a crime instead of pursuing justice and then had to deal with fallout from it.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:25 am to alajones
quote:
Bill was on the right side, but doing it wrong. That’s what’s so awesome about the movie. The lines of right and wrong are totally blurred.
I’ve always said that this was a much more realistic western in a couple ways. Morality is often pushed aside by passion in real life. Also most of the gunplay is far more realistic than most other movies, such as TGTBATU. The best pistoleros that ever lived couldn’t shoot like the characters can in that movie. Also many of the deputies are unsure or even flat out scared when disarming English Bob. Most of them probably never fired at another person in their lives.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 11:50 am to Zap Rowsdower
quote:
Scott Eastwood as Will
Michael B. Jordan as Ned
Benedict Cumberbatch as English Bob
And maybe Walton Goggins as Little Bill?
I would maybe go with Chadwick Bozeman or Chiwetel for Ned.
This post was edited on 7/15/18 at 11:52 am
Posted on 7/15/18 at 12:06 pm to H-Town Tiger
Using just the inflation calculator and not other factors...
A horse would have cost about $4,000 in today's money.
A good horse (not a plow horse) cost about $180-$200 in 1880.
To put that in persepctive, a bottle of whiskey cost two bits (25 cents) and a quart of milk cost a nickel.
A horse would have cost about $4,000 in today's money.
A good horse (not a plow horse) cost about $180-$200 in 1880.
To put that in persepctive, a bottle of whiskey cost two bits (25 cents) and a quart of milk cost a nickel.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 12:13 pm to rebelrouser
quote:
Trying to put the white hat on Eastwood and the black hat on Hackman misses the point of the movie.
Agree. That's why when it came out critics called it the Western to end all Westerns...because changed the dynamic of how we saw Westerns...who was the bad guy? Who was the good guy? Who should we be rooting for? There was no obvious black hat vs. white hat...and because of that - it de-glamorized the killing and revenge...
I mean Eastwood's character goes out of his way to constantly remind the audience how he killed women and children and frankly he is the one who should have been hung a long time ago...but he does that because he doesn't want the audience to instinctively root for him or make him out to be the good guy.
And Little Bill is law and order and seems like he's trying to be fair and reasonable and solve a problem but the movie also makes him an a-hole so it's hard to root for him.
The fact that this movie brings up this question is exactly what it was going for. As you said, ambigious.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 12:23 pm to Zap Rowsdower
quote:
eah the whores did overreact, but that doesn’t change the fact that it all got started because Bill didn’t do his job. Do your job, give a sentence that fits the crime (like one poster said earlier it could have actually been considered attempted murder) and the bounty doesn’t happen
I’m sorry but this is just ridiculous. You are completely exempting the actions of everyone else because the Sheriff didn’t give a strict enough sentence according to the whores and you (and me)
quote:
Do your job, give a sentence that fits the crime
But he did his job, that you don’t think the punishment was harsh enough doesn’t change that. Punishment was apparently entirely at the discretion of the sheriff. If you don’t like it vote him out, that doesn’t justify murder for hire. and you keep ignoring the one cowboys tried to make some compensation by giving the girl that was cut a horse.
quote:
like one poster said earlier it could have actually been considered attempted murder)
In 2018 yes, in 1881, IDK? I mean today he could just arrest Strawberry Alice and the whores for solicitation of murder.
This post was edited on 7/15/18 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 7/15/18 at 12:43 pm to H-Town Tiger
I don't think anyone here is saying it's justified to kill the cowboys for what they did. What everyone is saying is the situation escalated to that level because Little Bill didn't do his job. The punishment did not fit the crime. No they didn't deserve the death sentence, but it was a slap in the face that the cowboys were to pay Skinny and nothing to the girl at all. Little Bill took advantage of the whores because he thought they were powerless. The whores wanted to prove they weren't powerless. They overreacted to the situation and sought capital punishment.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 12:53 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
I’m sorry but this is just ridiculous. You are completely exempting the actions of everyone else because the Sheriff didn’t give a strict enough sentence according to the whores and you (and me)
I’m not exempting anyone I’m just saying to act like Bill was completely in the right and didn’t have dirty hands in all this either is a bit ridiculous.
quote:
and you keep ignoring the one cowboys tried to make some compensation by giving the girl that was cut a horse.
Look at one of my above posts. I brought up that the cowboy tried to make things right with the whore. The cowboy not Little Bill. Little Bill did nothing for the whore herself. That was the point in them going to the extreme and putting the bounty out. Again I’m not saying Little Bill was the bad guy or Munny was the good guy, I’m just saying Little Bill’s actions in the beginning are what put this whole thing in motion. It’s trying to play the politician and not the sheriff that put him in the wrong. Especially when we see how he seems to pick and choose how justice is enforced. I mean he beats Ned to death on a suspicion. English Bob (assuming laws in BW were similar to Tombstone) was brutalized and thrown in jail over a misdemeanor. Like I said earlier in a post the with the way the whores reacted I think it’s fair to make the assumption that Little Bill could possibly have a history of letting people get by, what is perceived as others and possibly victims, as easy and going overboard on other ones just according to how he felt that day.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 4:34 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
But he did his job, that you don’t think the punishment was harsh enough doesn’t change that. Punishment was apparently entirely at the discretion of the sheriff.
If you consider that a very large purpose of criminal law (and actually civil law as well) and those who enforce it is to keep people from resorting to private revenge and the violence that ensues from that, he definitely failed at that goal. I think he was trying to do this, at least after the beginning of the movie, but didn't get it done.
Whether this was due to his underestimating the resolve of the whores, his ego, or whatever, he definitely misplayed the initial situation.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 4:58 pm to Methuselah
The true villains of Unforgiven, at least in my opinion, were the prostitutes. Frances Fisher's character decides that the only justice for cutting up a hooker is death. That is a HUGE overreaction and they can't even afford the bounty they put on the cowboy. As a result, they unleash a whirlwind of violence on their town which resulted in the deaths of multiple people who didn't have to die.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 5:17 pm to rebelrouser
quote:
We always apply recent ethics to any movie. The writer and director did a great job by making this a morally ambiguous story. Trying to put the white hat on Eastwood and the black hat on Hackman misses the point of the movie.
Agree with that. There are no really good guys in the movie. Freeman's character was probably the closest protagonist and he was also a willing bounty hunter. Perhaps a better example might have been the whore who was cut to begin with - her resilience and decency were probably the strongest non-violent character traits in the movie.
I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of discussing current politics but an earlier post seemed to want to do just that - and it resonated as a really wrong way to look at a movie IMO. Using terms like SJW wouldn't even have fit if it were a current movie (given the characters were struggling with primary issues of violence and revenge more than political aims or ideologically driven concepts about the world).
Posted on 7/15/18 at 5:21 pm to Zap Rowsdower
quote:
I actually wouldn’t mind a prequel to Unforgiven to show Bob and Bill’s past and Ned and Muny’s wild days.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 5:28 pm to upgrade
quote:
the bar owner because he has a contract with her
Probably had a contract with whoever he bought her from. She was his property. Bill understood, Skinny had paid for a hottie, not a scar face. There's no way she could make the money that Skinny paid for her back, much less make him a profit.
Posted on 7/15/18 at 5:59 pm to chinese58
I dunno. I think that chick would have still gotten business. Even with the scars, she stacked up well against the other choices.
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