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re: tOfficial Better Call Saul S06E05 Thread “Black and Blue”

Posted on 5/11/22 at 5:25 pm to
Posted by Slippy
Across the rivah
Member since Aug 2005
7168 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 5:25 pm to
For those of you who think Kim is a character with deep roots, inexorably woven into the creators' vision for BB and BCS..... from Wikipedia....

quote:

In writing the pilot for Better Call Saul, showrunners Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould included the character of Kim but due to her being a new character to the Breaking Bad universe, especially in relation to Jimmy McGill / Saul Goodman or Mike Ehrmantraut, they had not yet developed a plan for her story. Gilligan said the writers had written Kim as "perhaps a love interest past tense, or potential love interest future tense", and possibly waning out of Jimmy's life later. She was originally a "tempering influence" for Jimmy, but otherwise the writers had few ideas as to where else they would take her character.[6] Rhea Seehorn auditioned and got the role in April 2014, about two months before the pilot was shot.[6] According to casting director Sharon Bialy, they had used two fake scenes to keep the high-profile project a secret, and when Seehorn auditioned and impressed them with both scenes, only then did they go to the next step and explain the audition's true purpose. Seehorn was able to adapt to this change to the role of Kim in a single take.

The pilot had two scenes with Kim, one which involves her counseling Jimmy after Howard Hamlin chews him out. The scene as written had minimal direction, but Seehorn, in preparing for the shot, saw a number of subtleties with the scene that suggested she knew Jimmy intimately, that she had boundaries, and she was used to cleaning up after Jimmy's mistakes. She also felt from this scene that Kim would prefer to listen before speaking and using that as a position of power. The writers saw how Seehorn acted out the scene and realized how much more it defined the character going forward, someone that prioritized work and placed boundaries on her relationship with Jimmy but still cared for him. Gilligan considered Seehorn's ongoing performance as Kim essential to her development. Seehorn had already gotten an idea that Kim enjoyed participating on Jimmy's cons, a fact established in the screenplay for the fourth episode of the first season "Hero", but which Seehorn had yet to see. Seehorn was able to use very subtle smiles to indicate Kim's appreciation for Jimmy during that episode, which Gould said, "The way she played it just felt so right that it gave us a strong feeling for where we were going with her."

With this change, the writers saw Kim no longer being as moral as planned and gave her a darker side that arose from her childhood, something that gave her a chip on her shoulder that would make her give in to more unethical approaches if it got the job done, and thus one that readily fell into work alongside Jimmy in his cons after fighting her reluctant nature to join in.[6] Gould called this "The emotional connection between these two characters had a gravitational pull that started twisting the whole story around."[7] This also drastically altered the direction they took Jimmy's transformation into Saul. The first-season finale, "Marco" shows Jimmy walking away from a potential job with the law firm Davis & Main that Kim had set up for him. Season two was to continue with Jimmy outright forgoing the job, but because the writers wanted to include Kim more based on Seehorn's performance, they altered this to show Jimmy returning and accepting the job for Kim's sake.[7]

During the first two seasons, Kim was rarely seen without a business suit or a tight ponytail, a choice made between Seehorn, Gilligan, Gould and stylist Trish Almeida to show that Kim was "all business". In the third season, Kim gets into a car accident, breaking her arm which in actuality would make it difficult for Kim to put up her hair in a ponytail without significant effort. At this point, as Kim's character was starting to become unravelled, Almeida and Seehorn used how tight the ponytail was set as an implicit sign of Kim's internal turmoil: when it was set tight, Kim was focused on her job, but if it was loose, it meant she was struggling with sadness and worry.


This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 5:30 pm
Posted by Hot Carl
Prayers up for 3
Member since Dec 2005
61256 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:53 pm to
quote:

The episode opens with her looking at the clock. It says 3:17. In the reflection it spells LIE.


I came here to post this. I don’t Reddit, but I do watch YouTube videos and would never try to pass something I found there as my own insight, but I did notice this myself upon a 2nd viewing. I could have kicked myself for not catching it upon 1st viewing, but I was trying to think of what the numbers meant. “March 17th, what does that mean?” Dumbass.

Anyway, I’m sure it could be interpreted a few ways, but I think the main thing is the the lie of omission of Kim not telling Jimmy about Lalo being alive. Just a few minutes later when Jimmy said he was glad he’s dead was the perfect opening for her to tell him, but she decided not to. Which I understand is to protect him, but they made a very, very clear deal to never lie to each other—actually closer to always telling the whole truth—so noble as her reasoning may be, it’s a breaking of their deal.

I think it also alludes to her lying to herself about her actual motivations. Maybe there’s even a bigger lie she’s working on that we don’t even know about yet.
Posted by Hot Carl
Prayers up for 3
Member since Dec 2005
61256 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:59 pm to
quote:

So what was "Black and Blue" in this episode?

The boxing match. Not a big fan of that scene.


On the surface level, sure. But earlier I mentioned how the the creators say they use blue to symbolize the world of law and order, the “good” world. But did you notice how much Kim was dressed in black this episode? Way more than I can remember. I’m not sure they’ve come out and said what black means exactly, but I think it’s reasonable assume it means “bad,” symbolizing Kim’s moral devolution (which I think her smoking more is also a clue to that). So, she’s still struggling between those 2 worlds on the outside, but internally as well.
Posted by 1BamaRTR
In Your Head Blvd
Member since Apr 2015
23909 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 8:55 pm to
quote:

Mike was making bank and such a stand up guy.



Mike was a dirty cop who later became a hit man and top security guy for a meth distributor. In BB he helped cover up the murder of a kid.

Almost nobody in either BCS or BB are “standup” characters
Posted by RonLaFlamme
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2016
1858 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 9:24 pm to
Howard is an insufferable arse. The fact that he has moments of seeming goodness are overcome by the fact that it is always about him. He is condescending, arrogant, born on 3rd base, and he uses insincere flattery towards others to make himself feel better about himself. His wife hates him and he fired his best friend (who didn't really respect him) and drove him to suicide. That's his epitaph.
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 9:56 pm to
Something came up in my newsfeed speculating that Gus did that staring off into space deal with the curly fries, or whatever they were, as it reminded him of meeting with the big guy from Madrigal. Which is in Germany. He taste tested them.

The idea is it made Gus think Lalo, Werner, Germany.

It also showed a screen grab of Werner's wife's invoice from the travel store.

Would explain stashing the gun as he thinks Lalo is going to find out where the future meth lab is located. The German guys know the name of the laundry from the delivery trucks they were hauled around in.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 9:56 pm
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 10:04 pm to
Concerning Howard's PI. They made his car go out of focus as he drove away and turned around. This disguises what it is somewhat. Intentionally I'm sure.

The taillight was in focus at first however, and it was not a Caprice/Impala like Mike's guys tailing Kim drive. Similar car, perhaps a Buick LeSabre.

The cars are close enough in appearance a non-car person could easily mistake them. So, that may happen with Kim.

LeSabre;


Caprice;


eta-It may not be a LeSabre, although it looks right. Just pointing out it was definitely not a Caprice.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 11:51 pm
Posted by Walking the Earth
Member since Feb 2013
17328 posts
Posted on 5/11/22 at 10:19 pm to
quote:

Would explain stashing the gun as he thinks Lalo is going to find out where the future meth lab is located.


I get the general concept in that Gus expects Lalo to meet him in the lab and engage him there.

Now Gus presumably wants, or at least expects, Lalo there on a certain timetable. And also, presumably, alone. In an underground bunker with only one entrance and exit.

How does he expect to get him down there? And presuming he allows Lalo in there so he can ambush Gus, why would Lalo (who has suddenly developed a methodical streak) take the bait? That has TRAP...DO NOT ENTER!! blazing in bright neon written all over it. If Gus makes it too easy, Lalo will expect to have ten armed men waiting for him and not show up.

Assuming the lab is where Lalo's last stand takes place, I'm interested to see how they pull that off without making Lalo look like a garden variety Salamanca dumbass.
Posted by Ham Solo
Member since Apr 2015
8070 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 12:44 am to
quote:

Howard is an insufferable arse. The fact that he has moments of seeming goodness are overcome by the fact that it is always about him. He is condescending, arrogant, born on 3rd base, and he uses insincere flattery towards others to make himself feel better about himself. His wife hates him and he fired his best friend (who didn't really respect him) and drove him to suicide. That's his epitaph.


Just when I start to feel sorry for Howard, you make some really good points that are hard to dispute.

Have to give credit to the writers and his acting that you can really feel two different ways about Hamlin.
Posted by rebelrouser
Columbia, SC
Member since Feb 2013
12191 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:27 am to
quote:

he fired his best friend (who didn't really respect him) and drove him to suicide.


What? Chuck McGill was batshit crazy and had a fear of electricity. He should never have allowed him back to the firm in the first place. And Jimmy is the one that drove him to suicide; not Howard.
Posted by Sid in Lakeshore
Member since Oct 2008
41956 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:32 am to
quote:

What? Chuck McGill was batshit crazy and had a fear of electricity. He should never have allowed him back to the firm in the first place. And Jimmy is the one that drove him to suicide; not Howard.


Yeah, Howard was way more understanding, flexible supportive and accommodating to Chuck than ANYBODY would have been in real life. He was basically a saint to Chuck because Chuck was his dad's partner and helped build the firm.
Posted by RonLaFlamme
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2016
1858 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:42 am to
I poorly expressed my main point there - Howard was nothing without Chuck, who was mentally ill, and he used him for so long because he knew the firm would suffer without him. Getting fired from HMM was the final straw for Chuck that pushed him over the edge.

Howard uses people for his benefit - he smiles and slaps them on the back and gives them pet nicknames, but it's all about him.
This post was edited on 5/12/22 at 10:44 am
Posted by Sid in Lakeshore
Member since Oct 2008
41956 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:47 am to
quote:

Howard uses people for his benefit - he smiles and slaps them on the back and gives them pet nicknames, but it's all about him.




I disagree.
Posted by WG_Dawg
Member since Jun 2004
88721 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:53 am to
quote:

Howard uses people for his benefit - he smiles and slaps them on the back and gives them pet nicknames, but it's all about him.



I disagree.


Yeah I do too. Howard definitely comes across like a lawyer and seems smarmy, not genuine, fake, etc. But he doesn't strike me as bad or having malicious intent on anyone. It's his job to put on a big fake smile and remember people's names and details about their personal life to make connections, that's his job. Always personable and always trying to retain clients or gain new ones. But he's not out there actively hurting folks
Posted by RonLaFlamme
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2016
1858 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 10:55 am to
quote:

But he's not out there actively hurting folks


Like making old people wait until they're dead so he can squeeze the nursing home for more $?
Posted by Sid in Lakeshore
Member since Oct 2008
41956 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:01 am to
quote:

Like making old people wait until they're dead so he can squeeze the nursing home for more $?




Thats one interpretation, and it suits Jimmy and Kim. The younger plaintiffs may benefit by the delay. Who's interests should Howard serve? You tell me.

Howard is being a lawyer.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
154060 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:01 am to
quote:

I poorly expressed my main point there - Howard was nothing without Chuck, who was mentally ill, and he used him for so long because he knew the firm would suffer without him. Getting fired from HMM was the final straw for Chuck that pushed him over the edge.

Howard uses people for his benefit - he smiles and slaps them on the back and gives them pet nicknames, but it's all about him.


Howard is sort of selfish at times, but outside of that you completely missed the mark IMO.

Howard was definitely something without Chuck. He can't help that Chuck helped build the firm. But that doesn't mean Howard didn't earn his career (even if given a head start due to his father). And he wasn't using Chuck...he wanted Chuck to come back to the firm, yes. But he also wanted him to get better, and rolled along with the fake electrosensitivity bullshite as well as anybody did. And he didn't fire him from HHM...he basically asked him to retire, and the reason he did that was because Chuck was clearly going insane and losing his mental capability (from Howard's perspective). Keep in mind, nobody knew about the transposing of the address numbers outside of Jimmy and the copier kid. Even when Jimmy confessed to it, it was basically played off as Jimmy feeling sorry for Chuck and trying to make him feel better rather than it actually being true. Add that to the other little things that made Chuck seem off mentally, and then the whole court charade with the cell phone battery, and from Howard's perspective Chuck was becoming a liability to the firm rather than an asset. So he tried to talk some sense into him to retire. And publicly, that's what happened.

Not to mention that even after Howard tried to amicably split with Chuck, Chuck turned around and sued the firm knowing it would basically bankrupt it. And Howard paid the remaining buyout amount to Chuck from his own accounts (several million dollars I believe). So even some of the things Howard did "to" Chuck were in direct response to Chuck being an a-hole and trying to ruin the law firm.

But all of that being said, it all basically stemmed from things Jimmy did. Not Howard.


ETA: And in the end, Chuck knew Jimmy did actually care about him. Yes, Jimmy was an a-hole and a sleezebag, but he still catered to Chuck for the most part and did care about him, and weirdly still idolized his big brother to a degree. So Chuck actually killed himself not only because he was mentally unstable, but also moreso because he thought it would hurt Jimmy (though by that point Jimmy had sort of checked out of it and was over it).
This post was edited on 5/12/22 at 11:08 am
Posted by RonLaFlamme
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2016
1858 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:53 am to
I think Patrick Fabian does a remarkable job portraying Howard. I still think Howard is a narcissist and a bad guy who has brief glimpses of goodness, but then I realize, he's only doing it for himself.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
154060 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 12:17 pm to
quote:

I think Patrick Fabian does a remarkable job portraying Howard

He does an incredible job. I said so a few pages back actually. He really makes you pull for him, then hate him, then feel sorry for him, then hate him again in the span of an episode or two.
Posted by RonLaFlamme
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2016
1858 posts
Posted on 5/12/22 at 12:26 pm to
To paraphrase and contrast something Chuck said about Jimmy:

He (Jimmy) has a way of doing the wrong things for the right reason.

IMO, Howard does some right things, but he does them for the wrong reasons.
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