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re: TLJ review SPOILERS
Posted on 12/20/17 at 6:55 pm to OMLandshark
Posted on 12/20/17 at 6:55 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Ratatouille's catchphrase "Anyone Can Cook" which means "Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere".
I actually agree with you. But great artists and great cooks had to practice and perfect their art for years.
It's just another thing that Rian Johnson fricking ruined. Instead of her finding Luke and undergoing meaningful character building and training. She finds Luke and then nothing happens.
It would've been a great set up:
Ren is raw talent and power and ego
Rey is the underdog who wins because of dedication and training and sacrifice
There you go. Classic power struggle nature vs nurture.
My biggest problem with her character in these movies is Rey didn't earn anything she has. The classic come from nothing hero archetype usually goes through a period of great practice or struggle or defeat or learning.
She hasn't bled for her beliefs. She hasn't spent time training. She hasn't dedicated herself to her mastery. She was just given magical super powers with no limit and no match.
She's never lost a fight or even had a conflicting decision. She's never faced a consequence or overcome a great trial we weren't sure about.
We're just supposed to take it at face value that this random slave girl with no connection to anything else ever in the Star Wars ethos who has no training and no practice is the most powerful force user ever? It's just annoying and shitty story telling.
That's the problem. The characters and plot lines in this movie are indefensible from a basic writing prospective. Forget star wars. Look at the way you craft a good story since the dawn of time. From the Iliad and the Odyssey to the Canterbury Tales to Shakespeare to the Golden age of film. You can't just throw basic story and character principles out the window and expect the fricking thing to work.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:00 pm
3
Posted on 12/20/17 at 6:56 pm to Breesus
Did Lacour get banned?
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:00 pm to Breesus
quote:
I actually agree with you
...And I actually agree with you there. You made me hate the movie more, and sure there will be many moments to come where we all egg each other off a cliff in the name of the movie.
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:01 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
And I actually agree with you there. You made me hate the movie more
You kind of want to kiss me now don't you?
:brofist:
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:01 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:02 pm to Breesus
quote:
You kind of want to kiss me now don't you?
frick no!
quote:
:brofist:
That, yes. :brofist:
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:08 pm to OMLandshark
Just got out of the theater after seeing it the first time. George Lucas looks like a freaking genius for selling off this franchise after what’s become of it. That was a stinking pile of dog crap and I’m a big star wars fan. I saw the original when it came out and have seen them all at the theater.
This one was probably the worst. The prequels were terrible stories, but at least they were based on some sort of logic. This one defied it at almost every turn.
It’s amazing that a huge corporation like Disney let this off the lot. They have completely shot themselves and their investment not in the foot, but squarely in the head.
This one was probably the worst. The prequels were terrible stories, but at least they were based on some sort of logic. This one defied it at almost every turn.
It’s amazing that a huge corporation like Disney let this off the lot. They have completely shot themselves and their investment not in the foot, but squarely in the head.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:10 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:15 pm to OMLandshark
But seriously that's what it comes down to.
The more I thought about the movie and read through these threads the more it became clear.
If you remove your anger at the star wars nerd in you and just look at the Skelton of the characters and the plot this movie is broken on every level.
It lacks any real conflict. There's no character development. The plot isn't advanced. Nothing meaningful ever happens in the entire movie because he failed at the basic level of set up, conflict, climax, resolution. At the beginning and end of TLJ every character and both the Resistance and the First Order are in the same place as when they began. It's a complete failure on the basic tenets of story telling.
Even the only two significant events in the movie, Snoke's "death" and Luke's "death" hold no weight because Snoke was a throw away character no one cares about who was killed without climax and Luke's characters was ridiculously unlikable and then killed and then revealed to have not really be killed and then just faded into the sunset.
If the Force Awakens is viewed as homage and soft reboot to the franchise and a retelling of a classic tale from a new angle, then TLJ should be viewed as a shitty rip off parody of the Franchise. That's really what it is. A parody. It parodies and makes fun and tears down everything that came before it. And it does so really sloppily and lazily.
And if you read Rian Johnson's interviews about the movie that's exactly what it was. He point blank said he didn't care about star wars or the established universe or fan base and he in no way tried to make a Star Wars film fans would like. That's a quote from him.
The more I thought about the movie and read through these threads the more it became clear.
If you remove your anger at the star wars nerd in you and just look at the Skelton of the characters and the plot this movie is broken on every level.
It lacks any real conflict. There's no character development. The plot isn't advanced. Nothing meaningful ever happens in the entire movie because he failed at the basic level of set up, conflict, climax, resolution. At the beginning and end of TLJ every character and both the Resistance and the First Order are in the same place as when they began. It's a complete failure on the basic tenets of story telling.
Even the only two significant events in the movie, Snoke's "death" and Luke's "death" hold no weight because Snoke was a throw away character no one cares about who was killed without climax and Luke's characters was ridiculously unlikable and then killed and then revealed to have not really be killed and then just faded into the sunset.
If the Force Awakens is viewed as homage and soft reboot to the franchise and a retelling of a classic tale from a new angle, then TLJ should be viewed as a shitty rip off parody of the Franchise. That's really what it is. A parody. It parodies and makes fun and tears down everything that came before it. And it does so really sloppily and lazily.
And if you read Rian Johnson's interviews about the movie that's exactly what it was. He point blank said he didn't care about star wars or the established universe or fan base and he in no way tried to make a Star Wars film fans would like. That's a quote from him.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:15 pm to Breesus
quote:
Ren is raw talent and power and ego Rey is the underdog who wins because of dedication and training and sacrifice
Would have echoed Obi-Wan vs Anakin nicely. You are spot on, she’s had no challenges, she just has a bruise on her head. Couldn’t even get her right hand cut off.
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:20 pm to GeauxLSUGeaux
I guess if all you are looking for is light saber gymnastics then ok. I felt this one had more character depth, analysis and discussion if the force and redeeming qualities like that. For example the OT is the best and it rarely had cool light saber battles. Not comparing this to the OT in terms of quality. Just pointing out some differences
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:22 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:23 pm to AggieDub14
The fact that we really can't even nail down the gravity issue is just more reason why this movie failed. I would normally not bother over it, but since it was RJ directing, I just can't give him a pass for such a clusterfrick.
Since SW has some form of artificial gravity in all of their ships in space (as well as holy hell of inertial dampeners that allow unrealistic rotation and movement in said ships without killing crew), I guess they probably just figured well since the bombs are being held inside an area that has gravity, they should just "drop" when the bay doors open
In every other instance that I can think of in SW, all weapons have some form of thrust propelling them. This is the first time that they didn't and just said frick it. Come on Rian...
Since SW has some form of artificial gravity in all of their ships in space (as well as holy hell of inertial dampeners that allow unrealistic rotation and movement in said ships without killing crew), I guess they probably just figured well since the bombs are being held inside an area that has gravity, they should just "drop" when the bay doors open
In every other instance that I can think of in SW, all weapons have some form of thrust propelling them. This is the first time that they didn't and just said frick it. Come on Rian...
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:42 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:23 pm to Breesus
quote:
It lacks any real conflict. There's no character development. The plot isn't advanced. Nothing meaningful ever happens in the entire movie because he failed at the basic level of set up, conflict, climax, resolution. At the beginning and end of TLJ every character and both the Resistance and the First Order are in the same place as when they began. It's a complete failure on the basic tenets of story telling.
Yeah, I can't believe that Rey has no part in the finale. She just becomes a badass... and that's it. Luke is out of her life and now she has to kill Kylo Ren. Where's the conflict and growth as a character? Was the only bit of growth that Kylo tells her who her parents are? How the frick didn't the script supervisors toss this back in Rian's face?
quote:
Even the only two significant events in the movie, Snoke's "death" and Luke's "death" hold no weight because Snoke was a throw away character no one cares about who was killed without climax and Luke's characters was ridiculously unlikable and then killed and then revealed to have not really be killed and then just faded into the sunset.
Mark Hamill tried to warn us. Now he gets to pull a Harrison Ford for the rest of his life and bitch about how his character should have been killed off.
quote:
If the Force Awakens is viewed as homage and soft reboot to A New Hope, then TLJ should be viewed as a shitty rip off parody of Empire. And if you read Rian Johnson's interviews about the movie that's exactly what it was. He point blank said he didn't care about star wars or the established universe or fan base and he in no way tried to make a Star Wars film fans would like. That's a quote from him.
It just fails so hard. I can't imagine JJ Abrams writing and directing a movie like this. I mean maybe having a somewhat feminism subplot like he did with "Star Trek Into Darkness" with the military industrial complex, but at least he was competent enough to know to keep it very much focused on Khan, Kirk, and Spock. I mean sweet Christ.
I am really looking forward to the specific rundown times in what is dedicated to Rey/Kylo and what is dedicated to everything else. I'm willing to bet everything else is slightly over Rey/Kylo.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:25 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:28 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
guess if all you are looking for is light saber gymnastics then ok. I felt this one had more character depth, analysis and discussion if the force and redeeming qualities like that. For example the OT is the best and it rarely had cool light saber battles. Not comparing this to the OT in terms of quality. Just pointing out some differences
You aren’t getting it.
I referenced the lightsaber battles as a redeeming quality, even though AotC was a POS. You mention character depth in TLJ as a strong point whenever I notice it as a weak point. Not only did they not reinforce the character depth of the main crew they actually introduced even more characters into an already bloated plot that fails to develop any characters. You have Kylo Ren and Rey trying to turn each other. That is the extent of character development in this movie, and just like every other investment the audience has, there is no payoff.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 7:30 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:32 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
Why do Rey's parents have to be someone?
Because THEY made it a big deal
Obi-wan was strong in the force. Who was his parents? How about Qui-gon? Mention of his parents? And Yoda, very strong his is? Parents mentioned not, are they?
But she kept having visions of her parents. And they left her for a stealthy purpose. And they would return. You could have gone the entire TFA and not mentioned her back story, unless her lineage was supposed to be a part of the storyline. Like it was for Anakin, Luke, Leia, and Ben
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:44 pm to GeauxLSUGeaux
I disagree about the characters. I am one of the few that liked Luke's character development. Some others to a lesser extent but those are the main three. No point in going back and forth about it.
Posted on 12/20/17 at 7:47 pm to RobbBobb
I think it still played a role. Then being somebody was important in her reaction to finding out they were nobody who abandoned her.
It plays into this film being a more introspective and admittedly different Star Wars film. Again it certainly has a lot of flaws and I am not trying to say it was some great movie. But I felt the good outweighed the bad and they did some very interesting thing in the movie
It plays into this film being a more introspective and admittedly different Star Wars film. Again it certainly has a lot of flaws and I am not trying to say it was some great movie. But I felt the good outweighed the bad and they did some very interesting thing in the movie
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 8:07 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:Nobody was asking for that. They didn't need to reinvent the wheel here. Just don't frick it up.
It plays into this film being a more introspective and admittedly different Star Wars film.
No need for injecting more diverse cast. No need to shove it down our throats that women rule the galaxy. No need to make sure that just about every ethnic group is covered in every 60 second cycle of movie.
Just fricking write a good story that continues the storyline, with the same consistency of the original trilogy. Period. That's all the audience wanted. And they couldn't even do that much.
Posted on 12/20/17 at 8:18 pm to RealityTiger
Meh I enjoyed a different take on it with some more in depth discussion if the nature of the force and all. Different strokes
Posted on 12/20/17 at 8:20 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
It plays into this film being a more introspective and admittedly different Star Wars film.
frick them for that. frick the Studio and frick Rian Johnson.
If you want to go make your own diverse and introspective nonsense movie in space then go make your own unique IP. Go be creative and craft a universe on your own. No need to just rape an existing and beloved IP because you don't give a shite about the fanbase and you want to be different.
Or go make a Star Wars story that takes place on a completely different time line.
They began a trilogy that takes place in and is a direct sequel to the Skywalker family story backed up and explored by 6 movies, multiple animated series, books, video games, etc.... and then decided in the second movie of that trilogy, meh, frick it, let's just do something completely different and see what happens when we throw out all of that established IP for no gold reason at all.
If Rian Johnson wanted to make a movie separate and apart from Star Wars established lore, but using the basic universe as his foundation, then just set it 400 years after the events of the OT. Problem solved.
This post was edited on 12/20/17 at 8:31 pm
Posted on 12/20/17 at 8:27 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
I am one of the few that liked Luke's character development
What development? He begins the movie as a curmudgeoned old man on an island by himself and he ends the movie as a curmudgeoned old man who dies on the island by himself
Posted on 12/20/17 at 8:28 pm to Breesus
Star Wars, Episode VIII: Things Happen
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