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2
Posted on 3/31/19 at 11:27 pm to shamrock
As with most of this documentary, I don't think we're getting the whole story there either.
Posted on 4/1/19 at 6:44 am to medtiger
I found that entire hour just absurd.
Really desperate production by HBO imo. Serial was extremely well done and had s lot of credibility, this was a pure money grab to capitalize on the popularity imo.
Well our grass expert’s results are “inconclusive”, but now he’s a tire expert too!
The sketchy guy who found the body won’t meet with us, very suspicious! But in the very next scene we are talking about how his DNA isn’t in the system so he could be the murderer!! I wonder why he won’t talk to us??
Speaking of DNA, they didn’t test this ROPE found “very close” to the body in the middle of the woods!! Very suspicious! Never mind that there isn’t any indication whatsoever from the body that rope was used in the commission of the crime either to actually strangle Hae or to bind her wrists or ankles. Because rope doesn’t leave a mark or anything right! But hey look at this mark that could clearly only be made after 8 hours! (Their timeline there was very misleading as well, the body wasn’t supposedly buried at 7 pm but hours later).
And his poor sick mother!!! We’ll spend 20 minutes of the final hour taking about this because we don’t have anything else to talk about! If I die, who will be there to visit him??? (As his brother drives mom to visit him)
Look at this dirty prosecutor who is only using this case to capitalize of the fame so he can run for States Attorney, very troubling!! Never mind that he was prosecuting this case before Serial even came out. Oh but look at this hero defense attorney who is also running for SA and tells ROLLING STONE that he doesn’t think there is enough evidence to convict, no pandering for votes there!, and look how sad we are when he loses because clearly he was a courageous and heroic soul that sees the truth!!!
I could go on and on but man what a hatchet job. Anyone who will say anything we want we will stick a camera in their face and put them on freaking HBO to become famous (including the “former campaign worker” for the prosecutor who just trashed that dude the whole time. Sure there is no backstory there
).
The two parts I found interesting were the plea deal, and Jay supposedly telling them Adnan was trying to acquire a large amount of marijuana. I’ve always found something very compelling about the theft scheme he orchestrated against his mosque, which was covered in Serial but obviously not even mentioned here (he’s a good boy, everybody likes him! He sent this girl’s kid a birthday card from prison!!). If he was trying to become acquire money to buy his way in to becoming some sort of a player or begin dealing, if Hae found out about it that could have been motive, it also could have been an act to prove he was “legit” or make his bones with Jay’s suppliers (although I doubt Jay was that connected). There is something there no doubt imo but obviously we’ll never know.
As for the plea offer, it was an astoundingly good offer and would have been absolute foolishness to turn down. I have my doubts any such offer was actually made but I guess it would make sense for the State if it meant avoiding a potential retrial, which would have been a nightmare at this point, both logistically from an evidentiary standpoint as well as from the PR standpoint.
A 17 year old serving almost 25 years wouldn’t be the worst outcome, although Hae’s family obviously wouldn’t be happy.
That whole hour I was sitting there wondering if Adnan would have actually been better off if Serial had never been done.
The way the State and police has been painted as villains and corrupt basically gives them no choice but to defend the conviction and fight at all costs to keep Adnan from becoming some martyr and wrongly persecuted hero.
Given the lack of physical evidence and the time he has served from a young age I wonder if the Courts would have found him more sympathetic and his legal arguments more valid if there wasn’t this huge outside influence coloring the case.
Like I mentioned earlier, the judicial system is supposed to be blind and impartial and nothing erodes that foundation more than outside interference. Almost all judges wang to protect that integrity of the case as presented to the jury and guided by the rules of evidence, especially at the high court level.
While the Serial phenomenon certainly had some benefit to him early on, I think the bigger it became and the more eyes watching it could have become a negative as the courts fought against the appearance of being influenced by public pressure. While Serial raised awareness and had an air of impartiality that the courts may have respected, the subsequent very slanted Undisclosed and outright attacks from major entertainment publications like Rolling Stone with a clear agenda would have the opposite effect by higher courts imo.
At the very least I doubt the State would have risked a new trial if they weren’t being called dirty and accused of framing high school kids for murder by every media outlet in the country.
I think if the legal arguments, which had some merit, were successful without the post Serial influence, guided mainly by an obsessive Rabia, the State would have been more likely to offer a deal with the Alford plea rather than pushing for the guilty plea as they supposedly ended up doing.
Again, we’ll never know, but interesting to think about. I doubt Rabia will have any such reflection on this whole process and continue to just be astonished at the dirty and prejudiced system that stole away her sweet Adnan
Really desperate production by HBO imo. Serial was extremely well done and had s lot of credibility, this was a pure money grab to capitalize on the popularity imo.
Well our grass expert’s results are “inconclusive”, but now he’s a tire expert too!
The sketchy guy who found the body won’t meet with us, very suspicious! But in the very next scene we are talking about how his DNA isn’t in the system so he could be the murderer!! I wonder why he won’t talk to us??
Speaking of DNA, they didn’t test this ROPE found “very close” to the body in the middle of the woods!! Very suspicious! Never mind that there isn’t any indication whatsoever from the body that rope was used in the commission of the crime either to actually strangle Hae or to bind her wrists or ankles. Because rope doesn’t leave a mark or anything right! But hey look at this mark that could clearly only be made after 8 hours! (Their timeline there was very misleading as well, the body wasn’t supposedly buried at 7 pm but hours later).
And his poor sick mother!!! We’ll spend 20 minutes of the final hour taking about this because we don’t have anything else to talk about! If I die, who will be there to visit him??? (As his brother drives mom to visit him)
Look at this dirty prosecutor who is only using this case to capitalize of the fame so he can run for States Attorney, very troubling!! Never mind that he was prosecuting this case before Serial even came out. Oh but look at this hero defense attorney who is also running for SA and tells ROLLING STONE that he doesn’t think there is enough evidence to convict, no pandering for votes there!, and look how sad we are when he loses because clearly he was a courageous and heroic soul that sees the truth!!!
I could go on and on but man what a hatchet job. Anyone who will say anything we want we will stick a camera in their face and put them on freaking HBO to become famous (including the “former campaign worker” for the prosecutor who just trashed that dude the whole time. Sure there is no backstory there
). The two parts I found interesting were the plea deal, and Jay supposedly telling them Adnan was trying to acquire a large amount of marijuana. I’ve always found something very compelling about the theft scheme he orchestrated against his mosque, which was covered in Serial but obviously not even mentioned here (he’s a good boy, everybody likes him! He sent this girl’s kid a birthday card from prison!!). If he was trying to become acquire money to buy his way in to becoming some sort of a player or begin dealing, if Hae found out about it that could have been motive, it also could have been an act to prove he was “legit” or make his bones with Jay’s suppliers (although I doubt Jay was that connected). There is something there no doubt imo but obviously we’ll never know.
As for the plea offer, it was an astoundingly good offer and would have been absolute foolishness to turn down. I have my doubts any such offer was actually made but I guess it would make sense for the State if it meant avoiding a potential retrial, which would have been a nightmare at this point, both logistically from an evidentiary standpoint as well as from the PR standpoint.
A 17 year old serving almost 25 years wouldn’t be the worst outcome, although Hae’s family obviously wouldn’t be happy.
That whole hour I was sitting there wondering if Adnan would have actually been better off if Serial had never been done.
The way the State and police has been painted as villains and corrupt basically gives them no choice but to defend the conviction and fight at all costs to keep Adnan from becoming some martyr and wrongly persecuted hero.
Given the lack of physical evidence and the time he has served from a young age I wonder if the Courts would have found him more sympathetic and his legal arguments more valid if there wasn’t this huge outside influence coloring the case.
Like I mentioned earlier, the judicial system is supposed to be blind and impartial and nothing erodes that foundation more than outside interference. Almost all judges wang to protect that integrity of the case as presented to the jury and guided by the rules of evidence, especially at the high court level.
While the Serial phenomenon certainly had some benefit to him early on, I think the bigger it became and the more eyes watching it could have become a negative as the courts fought against the appearance of being influenced by public pressure. While Serial raised awareness and had an air of impartiality that the courts may have respected, the subsequent very slanted Undisclosed and outright attacks from major entertainment publications like Rolling Stone with a clear agenda would have the opposite effect by higher courts imo.
At the very least I doubt the State would have risked a new trial if they weren’t being called dirty and accused of framing high school kids for murder by every media outlet in the country.
I think if the legal arguments, which had some merit, were successful without the post Serial influence, guided mainly by an obsessive Rabia, the State would have been more likely to offer a deal with the Alford plea rather than pushing for the guilty plea as they supposedly ended up doing.
Again, we’ll never know, but interesting to think about. I doubt Rabia will have any such reflection on this whole process and continue to just be astonished at the dirty and prejudiced system that stole away her sweet Adnan
This post was edited on 4/1/19 at 7:11 am
Posted on 4/1/19 at 10:46 am to Tiger Voodoo
I never listened to the podcast, but I watched 1.5 episodes last night of the HBO doc and it seems pretty open and shut.
FACT: Jay knew where Hae's car was meaning he was 100% involved in the murder.
FACT: Multiple people confirm that Jay and Adnan were together on the day of the murder. Jay had borrowed Adnan's car on the day of the murder.
There are only two possibilities. Either Jay killed Hae alone or with Adnan.
I think the truth is they both were equally involved.
FACT: Jay knew where Hae's car was meaning he was 100% involved in the murder.
FACT: Multiple people confirm that Jay and Adnan were together on the day of the murder. Jay had borrowed Adnan's car on the day of the murder.
There are only two possibilities. Either Jay killed Hae alone or with Adnan.
I think the truth is they both were equally involved.
Posted on 4/1/19 at 11:19 am to shamrock
There had to be more to that plea deal. Even if he didn't do it what's 4 more years? Best case is he gets a new trial and that's probably 18 months to 2 years anyway.
Posted on 4/1/19 at 12:53 pm to BobRoss
quote:
FACT: Multiple people confirm that Jay and Adnan were together on the day of the murder. Jay had borrowed Adnan's car on the day of the murder
People can’t even get straight what happened on what day. Everyone keeps talking about Adnan’s memory. The thing is, Adnan did somewhat remember things, specifically about getting the call from police.
The reason his memory got all screwed up is because the cops used Jay, Jenn, Christy to fit their story of how things went down. The problem is, it’s looking like the day all these people remembered might be a completely different day than when Hae went missing.
Adnan specifically remembered having to pull his phone out the glove compartment of his car to talk to police, which didn’t match what the others said. He also remembered only going to visit Christy once, and it was a different day.
Again, Adnan only got screwed up when cops and these other people told him he was wrong, when it turns out Adnan was probably the one that was right. Apparently even Jenn and Christy only believed things happened on the 13th because that’s what they were told.
People can laugh and say Christy could have just skipped school, but it seems that there is no way for her to have skipped class and passed with a B grade. Plus, the call she apparently heard doesn’t even match up, and there was stuff before the school thing that made it seem these people definitely weren’t talking about the 13th.
This post was edited on 4/1/19 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 4/1/19 at 1:07 pm to landrywasbeast30
So what?
Jay was involved in the murder and that has been proven. Jay had Adnan's cell that day, so obviously he was involved.
Jay was involved in the murder and that has been proven. Jay had Adnan's cell that day, so obviously he was involved.
Posted on 4/1/19 at 4:30 pm to BobRoss
quote:
Jay was involved in the murder and that has been proven
Only if you believe Jay and the cops can be trusted, which I don’t. Jay borrowed Adnan’s car to buy Stephanie a gift. The phone was in the car cause it couldn’t be brought in the school.
If the Christy story is bogus, and happened on a different day, which it likely is and did, the last thing left is the word of a guy whose own friends say is not someone to be believed. I’ll say again, the only thing connecting Adnan to this is the word of an unreliable, untrustworthy witness, who possibly worked with cops to frame Adnan to save his own arse from unrelated charges.
One of the things that bugs me is the Best Buy stuff. No one even knows if Best Buy had a pay phone at the time. A girl who went to school with Adnan said recently there was a pay phone at school, and calling Jay matched pretty clearly with the time it would have been if Adnan called Jay from school after the buses cleared out.
Personally, I think a stranger killed Hae, then the cops threatened Jay to help them pin it on Adnan. Not like this was uncommon in that place. Jay’s story never added up. From Best Buy, to trunk stories, to Christy story, to burying body/shovel stories. None of it ever made sense, and kept changing to fit whatever narrative the cops needed Jay to fit it into.
This post was edited on 4/1/19 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 4/1/19 at 4:45 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Loved Serial but I was pretty underwhelmed by the documentary. I love documentaries and this case is extremely intriguing but just from a film making perspective, I dont think they did a very good job with it.
The private investigators were horrible. Their dead grass research was so unbelievably stupid. Was a viewer supposed to react to a 80 year old womans memory of how the grass was in a field across the street from her 20 years ago? It was completely pointless and I would love to have seen that brought up in court
HBO didnt bring anything to the table and they were reaching bad when they tried.
The way they presented the dates was really annoying to me. They showed a date on half a screen, then fast forwarded in 4x speed to another date and gave you no time to process what the difference in dates meant bc they never showed them in calendar format only in a one angle horizontal frame. Completely useless.
The private investigators were horrible. Their dead grass research was so unbelievably stupid. Was a viewer supposed to react to a 80 year old womans memory of how the grass was in a field across the street from her 20 years ago? It was completely pointless and I would love to have seen that brought up in court
HBO didnt bring anything to the table and they were reaching bad when they tried.
The way they presented the dates was really annoying to me. They showed a date on half a screen, then fast forwarded in 4x speed to another date and gave you no time to process what the difference in dates meant bc they never showed them in calendar format only in a one angle horizontal frame. Completely useless.
Posted on 4/2/19 at 7:39 am to landrywasbeast30
Dude,
Adnan's phone called Jen's phone. That has been proven.
You're talking about a huge conspiracy. The most logical answer is the simplest one.
Adnan's phone called Jen's phone. That has been proven.
You're talking about a huge conspiracy. The most logical answer is the simplest one.
Posted on 4/2/19 at 8:05 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:Serial was a 10+ hour weekly doc. So you were definitely going to get more information out of that piece than the documentary.
Loved Serial but I was pretty underwhelmed by the documentary. I love documentaries and this case is extremely intriguing but just from a film making perspective, I dont think they did a very good job with it.
quote:I don't think it's HBO's job to bring anything new to the case. If anything, this mini-series points out the fact that a lot of the people involved in this situation were looking out for themselves and didn't expect people to come after them with questions 20 years later
The private investigators were horrible. Their dead grass research was so unbelievably stupid. Was a viewer supposed to react to a 80 year old womans memory of how the grass was in a field across the street from her 20 years ago? It was completely pointless and I would love to have seen that brought up in court
HBO didnt bring anything to the table and they were reaching bad when they tried.
I also found the grass expert a bit ridiculous. But I do think the timing of HML's car being there is off. Also, the fact that zero dna evidence was ever found in the trunk is weird.
Posted on 4/2/19 at 8:17 am to BobRoss
quote:Given the fact that this was BLE in the late 90's/early '00 a massive conspiracy isn't as far fetched as you make it sound.
You're talking about a huge conspiracy. The most logical answer is the simplest one.
Posted on 4/2/19 at 12:42 pm to landrywasbeast30
quote:
Only if you believe Jay and the cops can be trusted, which I don’t
I just cannot understand this mindset.
The Innocence Project claims that only 2-5 percent of people incarcerated are innocent, and those are the most inflated numbers imaginable given their mission.
Of that let’s say 3% of all convictions such a miniscule fraction of that would be because of willful misconduct or active “framing” by police that it isn’t even worth considering unless there are zero other alternatives.
It simply isn’t common yet so many people are always so eager to jump to that conclusion.
Tell me why you believe Jay would stick to this cover up now, when he would be an absolute superstar and likely get a million dollar book deal if he revealed the cover up now rather than the murderer these productions have tried to paint him as??
And you realize at the time he testified he had signed an agreement to serve two years in DOC? Do you know how much weed this 17 year old would have had to be dealing to get two years DOC??
He wasn’t getting off Scott free athough a judge later went against that recommendation and gave him probation.
quote:
If the Christy story is bogus, and happened on a different day, which it likely is and did
“Likely did”??
Man, you have just totally swallowed everything these storytellers are selling you.
You think Christy, 20 years later, and under the pressure of knowing that virtually the entire country wants Adnan freed, saying oh yeah I had class that day I guess I wasn’t watching Judge Judy like I’ve said for the past 20 years is convincing???
You don’t think she knew she had class when the police first interviewed her like a month after it happened??
The girl had zero reason to lie, and like another poster said the cell records show that Adnan’s phone called Stephanie the day Hae went missing. Adnan didn’t call Stephanie, Jay did.
The days were NOT uncertain 20 years ago and they only appear so now because these very skilled and motivated storytellers have spent years throwing out as many alternate theories and timelines so that no one can even keep straight what was actually said or not anymore.
Jay and the other witnesses’ stories don’t “keep changing”. The two girls never did. But today when these producers put all these things in front of them they say oh yeah that’s weird it doesn’t make sense I guess. Partly because they don’t want to be the assholes in Baltimore that keep poor Adnan locked up, and partly because they just don’t give a shite.
These girls didn’t know Hae, didn’t even really know Adnan, and haven’t known Jay in decades. WTF do they care? This hasn’t consumed their lives and probably haven’t even thought about it again until Serial came out.
As has been said, these productions are giving you tiny snippets of a six month trial that took a jury less than two hours to convict.
The cell phone records evidence is unreliable because of the incoming calls!!!!
What about the outgoing calls in the minutes before and after those unreliable calls?? Any thoughts as to why the producers didn’t address that in their presentations??
Use your own critical thinking skills to analyze what they are, and more importantly what they ARENT, telling you.
We keep hearing about the “state’s timeline”. I can without the slightest doubt tell you that there is ZERO percent chance the State says the murder HAD TO happen by 2:36, like these productions claim. There was another outgoing call like half an hour later and no sensible attorney would pigeonhole themselves into a timeline like that. Think about it, why on Earth would they do that???
As for Jay’s “changing story”, he addressed his three statements on the stand and the jury found him believable. The big change, where he saw the body, was to protect his grandmother.
The other changes were far less material and either didn’t change anything or are explained by his unwillingness to be open with police until he was sure they weren’t going to go after him for the weed charges.
I’m not sure how much you deal in the criminal justice system but details in witness statements change ALL THE TIME in virtually EVERY CASE.
This isn’t some novel and unique aspect of this case.
But the foundation of Jay knowing where the car was, combined with the cell records, the witness statements (the original statements and testimony not the muddied up versions these productions have created decades later), Adnan’s own inability to account for his whereabouts at the key moments of the day, with the uncontroverted fact that he called Hae the night before she went missing (he says to tell her he may need a ride) even though they were broken up for weeks (and even though he never called her again despite all of her other friends calling her nonstop after they found out she was missing), provide a strong enough case to convict, and the jury was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt after hearing ALL of the evidence admitted.
As someone else said, the simplest answer is usually the most likely.
But go ahead and continue choosing to believe that police, mean men that give us speeding tickets and break up high school parties when we are kids, are just bad people always out to set up innocents and take away freedoms of anyone that fits their agenda just to clear a case
This post was edited on 4/2/19 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:31 pm to Matisyeezy
quote:
3) Jen Pusateri is a straight up meth head. She’s, what, 39? She looks 52. The videos of her in court do not look like only 20 years have passed. Edit: “At this point, weed was, like, still, really illegal...” — we had to pause the show because we were laughing too hard
This part was absolute gold. I really like Jen Pusateri. She's my favorite person in all of this.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:01 pm to BobRoss
quote:
I think the truth is they both were equally involved.
Equally?
LIke they went halfsies on her neck? Come on.
Adnan did it. Jay helped try to cover it up, and has like 26 different ways to Sunday to try to minimize his role in trying to cover it up.
That's it. That's the story.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:02 pm to MidnightVibe
I was expecting better out of this documentary. I'm on episode 4 and there are 20 minutes left, and I just put it on pause, and I"m nnt even sure I'm gonna finish it.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:05 pm to landrywasbeast30
quote:
People can laugh and say Christy could have just skipped school, but it seems that there is no way for her to have skipped class and passed with a B grade. Plus, the call she apparently heard doesn’t even match up, and there was stuff before the school thing that made it seem these people definitely weren’t talking about the 13th.
I have never in my life heard of a class where you literally would fail if you didn't physically go to each and every class. That isn't a concept that actually exists. Unless it's the final exam, going to class is basically always your decision.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:09 pm to JBeam
quote:
Given the fact that this was BLE in the late 90's/early '00 a massive conspiracy isn't as far fetched as you make it sound.
Yes it is.
Massive conspiracies require EXTRAORDINARY competence.
A person's willingness to believe a conspiracy theory is a telling indicator of whether or not they have any damn sense.
LINK /
Posted on 4/5/19 at 11:07 am to MidnightVibe
quote:
I have never in my life heard of a class where you literally would fail if you didn't physically go to each and every class. That isn't a concept that actually exists. Unless it's the final exam, going to class is basically always your decision.
Naw it's fairly common for short term classes to be mandatory attendance based. That's not to say she wouldn't skip it anyways
Posted on 4/5/19 at 11:17 am to landrywasbeast30
quote:
there is no way for her to have skipped class and passed with a B grade.
shite, I was a king of skipping in high school and graduated magna cum laude.
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