re: Star Wars plothole going into Last Jedi

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Similar facial structure, and the eyes match. The Rebellion damn near got him killed and ruined his political aspirations. Leia was the adopted daughter who brought this about, not his flesh and blood. If the Jedi hadn't gone overboard, he might be running the Republic today, instead of it being extinct.


Oh please let this theory be true! This would be more awesome than Jar-Jar or Mace Windu being Snoke.

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Y'know, looking at those photos some more in depth, not only do the eyes match, the bone structure around his nose does too. Hmmm....

Seriously- Bail Organa was a bigtime player. He was angling to be the next Chancellor, before Palpatine jumped him with the "sympathy vote". He remained at the forefront of the Senate, standing beside Palpatine overlooking the armies as they assembled.

As I said, he let Mon Motha be the visible face of the Rebellion, choosing to remain in the background, although he was prominent in it. He was privy to all the intel, and per Rogue One, he was at the Yavin base when they launched the attack on Scarif (the archive planet). He would have known what happened to Jedha (hit by a partial power shot from the Death Star), and very likely Scarif too. And he'd have been aware that the Imperial fleet responded to the attack on Scarif, and that Vader pursued and captured Leia.

Dude knows Leia being involved at all implicates him, and he knows Palpatine is a vengeful bastard. Plus, he knows if they interrogate her, she will spill the beans... Organa is recruiting Obi Wan Kenobi (who's facing a death sentence), who he knew survived the purge, and he'd known this since day 1. Well, Organa being the crafty man he is, I'm sure he would wait on his planet and hope his military can fend off the combined Imperial fleets coming to arrest him... oh wait, Alderaan is peaceful and has no defenses. Leia says so in Ep 5, right before they blow it up.

So- Organa has been like a cat, landing on his feet through every move of the prequels. Are we to believe he just sits back and waits for the Empire to come for him now, especially after he's shown involved intimately in the Rebellion, and aware of everything going on? Or would a guy like that take a little vacation and lay low?

frick, now that I think of it- Organa was on the ship with Yoda and Kenobi, AND KNEW ANAKIN WAS VADER (the Jedi discussed this in front of him). Knew of both Leia AND Luke. So afterwards, he knew who Vader really was, when everyone else (including Leia) didn't.

Relevance- Snoke is someone who knew who Vader really was, that is how he got to Kylo Ren. He didn't just recruit a malcontent padawan, he went for the pureblood. I doubt it was widely discussed that Anakin was Vader; not at the time in the Empire, and not afterwards (that would be like saying "my grandfather ran the Gestapo" in show-and-tell at school).
But Snoke knew; and Organa knew.

For the sake of argument- if Bail Organa somehow survived the destruction of Alderaan (maybe he wasn't there, maybe he WAS IN ORBIT AND GOT HORRIBLY WOUNDED BY THE BLAST), would he, as a lifelong and career politician, be bitter about the destruction of his life? The death of his family, everyone dear to him (except the adopted daughter that he was pulled into taking, and who was the justification the Empire used to pull the trigger), all his wealth and power... everything.

Might he hold a grudge against the New Republic, when he was so very close to taking control of the old one? Against the Skywalkers, whose lives he got tangled in and caused this?
Might he want to reclaim what he considered rightfully his?

It definitely makes for an interesting story, and he's one of the few guys capable of organizing the First Order (getting the Imperials on board is one thing, but you need savvy, connections and diplomatic skill to make it run, and to do so fast enough that the New Republic is taken by surprise).
He'd have both his connections from the Senate, and from association with the early Rebellion, connections to various greedy organizations (Banking Clan, Trade Federation, etc) to skim cash and such. Especially in a post-Empire galaxy, where it's a free-for-all, a guy with his connections could set up shop relatively easily.

Palpatine was "the devil", but like both he and the Jedi said, the Senate was rampant with corruption, and he had climbed to the top.

Just a thought, I'd love to hear discussion on this. If you can shoot it down with facts, please do so. But I feel like I might have stumbled onto the plot of this new trilogy.

With all of this in mind, it actually seems less logical that he was on Alderaan when it blew up. He had been playing both sides, just like Palpatine had with the Republic and the Trade Federation/Separatists.

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Vader likely did much worse during his career and he got redemption in the eyes of the movie goer.

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Vader didn’t do anything on screen in the OT that countered his redemption arc.

Kylo killed on of the big three on screen who was his father.

He is already in a much deeper hole than Vader ever was as far as what was put on the screen to that point.

Really, to me, the biggest plot hole in the OT was something made even worse by TFA.

Vader could figure out Luke was strong with the Force during a dogfight over the Death Star, and he soon figured out that Luke was his son (although, granted, being named "Skywalker" and coming from Tatooine was a dead giveaway).
Yet he never sensed anything about Leia, and learning of her was a big surprise at the end for him.

In TFA, we are shown that Rey manifests her Force abilities as a defense while being tortured/questioned by Ren.

Leia is supposedly equal in potential to Luke. Nobody has told her to "use the Force", but nobody told Anakin either, and Qui Gon sensed him nonetheless.
Vader had Leia in his clutches in ANH and tortured/questioned her. He had her again in ESB and tortured her again. She had plenty of desperate moments where turning to the Force was her only defense, and while Vader comments that her resistance to the probe is "considerable", he never considers anything more.

Luke triggers her sensitivity on Bespin with his "Leia, hear me" thing, and although Vader and Luke can sense each other in space, Vader still doesn't pick anything up on Leia.

If Vader really was all that, I would expect him to sense his own daughter during questioning and torture. Family was the driving point of his existence, and he should be able to 'smell' that, if he's the greatest Jedi ever.

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Vader could figure out Luke was strong with the Force during a dogfight over the Death Star, and he soon figured out that Luke was his son (although, granted, being named "Skywalker" and coming from Tatooine was a dead giveaway).
Yet he never sensed anything about Leia, and learning of her was a big surprise at the end for him.

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Well, Vader was also able to sense it when Obi Wan was talking to him. I'd have to guess in my limited experience with the Force, the man you killed speaking to your son via the Force would probably be easier to pick up than a girl who may be force sensitive, but had no training/ability to use it at all.

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In TFA, we are shown that Rey manifests her Force abilities as a defense while being tortured/questioned by Ren.

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This was so dumb. Still is.

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Didn't Palpatine say his master could stop death? What's the chances snoke is that guy

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Flirts with flying in the face of cannon

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Well, Vader was also able to sense it when Obi Wan was talking to him. I'd have to guess in my limited experience with the Force, the man you killed speaking to your son via the Force would probably be easier to pick up than a girl who may be force sensitive, but had no training/ability to use it at all.

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Maybe, but he wasn't around Luke personally, until Bespin. He was certain by then.

He had been around Leia several times, including personally torturing and interrogating her. He physically held her when the two watched Alderaan being destroyed.

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In TFA, we are shown that Rey manifests her Force abilities as a defense while being tortured/questioned by Ren.

This was so dumb. Still is.

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Dumb, but canon. Which then goes straight back to Leia's experience with Vader, and makes her lack of reveal in essentially the same circumstance more curious.

Vader was more polished than Ren was. He also should be more tuned into family (although he lost Padme, he still had fixated on this prior to her death).

Objectively, Kenobi reappearing on the scene to save her should have tipped him off. Kenobi sat out while they killed off however many folks, and allowed the Empire to cement their position without any effort to stop things. He now risks death (and sacrifices himself) for Leia.
If I'm Vader, I don't think about someone tagging along with Kenobi (I assume they are disposables), I question Leia's overall importance in a new light.

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In TFA, we are shown that Rey manifests her Force abilities as a defense while being tortured/questioned by Ren.

This was so dumb. Still is.

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Why?

It happened on a smaller level in Episode I with Qui Gon and Watto.

In Episode I, Qui Gon tries a Jedi Mind Trick on Watto but it doesn't work and Watto responds that mind tricks don't work on him.

It's a scaled down version of what happens with Rey. Kylo is trying to peer in her mind but she is able to defend it.

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Rey was able to defend against it, but also almost immediately figured out how to do it and did it to Ren. That was the issue

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That's not at all how I interpreted that scene. It made it seem as though when he was trying to break into her mind, he exposed his thoughts to her. It was less of her taking an action and more of him trying so hard that he opened the door.