re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread ***SPOILERS***

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There is zero chance Rey goes dark now.

If she were going to, it would have been in this movie.

And that would have been more interesting.

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Zero?

Lets look at Rey. Her inner motivation on Jakoo or wherever, counting the days she's left behind. She's waiting for her family to return. She hesitates to join the Resistance because she needs to go back there, to be there when they come back.

She learns she can use the Force. Not just a lightsaber (she could do that anyway, with her skill as a melee fighter), but the ACTUAL Force. Mind control, moving objects, etc.

She goes to Luke for guidance, to find her place in this. He's useless for that; 'feel the Force' he says. And no more. Luke is a fraud and a disappointment, and so she goes to the cave... the Dark Side temptation. It shows her she is on a journey to herself, all alone.

Trying to process that (not reject it, as Yoda warned Luke; Luke doesn't warn her. But WE know the Dark Side tempts you), she finds she can commune with Kylo. She calls him a monster, he acknowledges that, but she continues to open up to him. Like Anakin opened up to Palpatine. "This is what I fear...", and he offers a solution. Give up and let go. Accept that you are from nothing, and there is nothing for you. Except... join me (and I happen to be 'a monster'), and stop being alone.

She goes to him, Snoke is awful to her (torture, gloating, etc)... and Kylo kills him. Join me, he says again. We can be together and rule the galaxy, and our fates will be our own.

It's worth noting that she leaves Luke before he changes his mind, and she doesn't see astral Luke at the end. They both arrive to aid the Resistance, but in separate paths, not together.

She's torn by Kylo, clearly wanting to stay with him, but not like this. Don't do this, she quietly pleads, after seeing that they COULD mesh perfectly. She goes back to help the Resistance; but they are now less than a dozen people with no mojo left.
Her ties; to Finn, but he's now tending to Rose. Poe? They introduce, so they clearly never met, no ties there. Leia? Who knows... but we know Leia's tired of this shite in-film, and dead outside of it. And nobody answered Leia's distress call "with her personal code"... meaning:

Hey, this is Leia Organa, the one who fought for your asses against the Empire. I'm in deep shite right now and really need a hand. Come help, please!

... and nobody answers. Leia's confronted with the bitter truth: the Resistance is futile, because outside the dozen people with her on the Falcon, there are no more allies. No hope of leading other planets in an uprising, because they don't give a shite. This is no Rebellion, this is a small terrorist movement, and it's being snuffed out. Her son is trying to kill her, her ex is dead, her brother is dead. She's out of tokens, game over.

What is there for Rey? Luke is gone, and she rejected him anyway.
Kylo showed he could still be Ben. Perhaps with him, she can learn what is happening to her. And maybe he can understand the hopelessness and anger she's beginning to feel with everything; the destroyed childhood, the disappointment of meeting her hero and seeing it's a lie, being alone... and damn it the more she thinks about it, the more it hurts and pisses her off. Enough to force-choke a motherfricker... no, not that way,... unless he deserves it...?

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Star Wars is darth Vader. Star Wars is Luke Skywalker. Just make something new if you don’t like it.

This sucks.

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This was very sloppy and clumsy, and had trouble getting out of it's own way. I truly think they need to spend more time developing and honing these films, not rush them out as fast as possible.

But underneath all the mess, Kylo Ren is Ben Solo, with Skywalker blood. He's shown great potential strength, but right now he's basically actively choosing to suppress the Light Side, and use only the Dark. He was able to flip the switch and kill Snoke (something Vader couldn't do until the end), but he flipped it back again, intentionally. He's not personally ready to let go of the Dark Side. Not yet.

He really seems to like and want Rey. This was his trigger to reject Snoke. She's going to be involved in some manner, and it will cause him to embrace the Light, and basically double his strength in the process; I'm willing to bet on that. Not much, but maybe a nickel.

That's still available.

Believe me, I wish they had the balls to turn Rey dark with Ben or have her turn dark while Ben turns back to the light and defeats her because Ridley and Driver could sell the switch and make it work.

But they don't have the balls to do that.

They had the chance to exterminate the Resistance in this movie but didn't. Benecio Del Toro's character even did the grunt work of providing the sell for that. Force Broom Boy at the end would have provided the "There's always someone else out there" subtext in the code.

Hell, I would have straight up walked out of the theater if they would have turned Luke Skywalker dark but at least I would have had to acknowledge that they had the courage of their "We don't give a frick about your childhood...this is our Star Wars now, baby!" convictions.

But we all now how Episode IX is going to roll. The only minor mystery is whether Kylo Ren dies evil or becomes Ben Solo again before he dies.

The Big Bads will be Kylo Ren and General Hux, even though Kylo would have killed Hux as soon as the TLJ end credits started rolling, in any rational storytelling universe.

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gloss over Rey’s character AGAIN in the final movie and just make her a Disney Princess action star because reasons

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Almost every Disney Princess has parents. This is something worse.

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But there is one movie left in this trilogy. There is no overarching plan for these three movies. Ep9 has no story yet. Nothing. JJ has not worked on it at all according to his interview a few days ago.

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This is a multi-billion dollar property. It was stated to be another trilogy, or at the very least a continuation of the past ones. Has the final script been completed in detail? No. But I have to think there's a rough outline in place for the entire trilogy, that was there in some form before the filming on TFA started.

Ben is corrupted.
Rey appears on the scene.

We learn why Ben was corrupted, and that he can still choose to reject the Dark, when he decides he wants to.
We learn everything Rey hopes for is a lie and a disappointment.

These two are the real story, and there must be some conflict. The only thing that will push Ben away from the Dark Side is danger to Rey. With Snoke dead (proof Ben will protect Rey at any cost), the only danger left to Rey is... the Dark Side itself. I can't see another event that would cause Ben to embrace the Light Side. I can't see anything else that would threaten Rey.

But she's vulnerable to that, she's actively exploring what the cave showed her, and all her dreams have been crushed.

What other point is there to Ep 9, if not to redeem Ben? The Resistance is dead, it's not the Rebellion. Nobody cares, they can't defeat the First Order by force.

What other conflict can you see?

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You're wrong. There's not. Rian Johnson was given full autonomous creative control over the second movie of the trilogy and he tries his hardest to destroy the entire franchise.

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And I don’t buy that JJ approved that piece of shite. Disney told JJ to approve that piece of shite. The writers from The Last Airbender also “approved” of that adaptation, but they later came out and said that the studio forced them to say it.

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You're wrong. There's not. Rian Johnson was given full autonomous creative control over the second movie of the trilogy and he tries his hardest to destroy the entire franchise.

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I generally interpret "full autonomous creative control" of ANY franchise movie entry, as still within certain limits.
We will NOT impose any script on you, we will NOT oversee and correct you step by step, you are free to develop the story as you see fit. We will not have a ghost director looking over your shoulder.
As long as you get to where we tell you you need to be at the end

I think the following had to be the case-
at the end of the movie, Rey has to survive, and still be a "good guy". Kylo must survive and be Dark. The First Order is winning the fight, the Resistance is in serious jeopardy.

If you choose to muddle with the Force Powers, you must maintain balance. If Luke dies, so does Snoke. Both can live, or die; but you can't stack the deck going into the final movie, it has to be Rey vs Kylo.
In fact, if you can pare them out, that gives us more Rey vs Kylo in the finale; so they definitely aren't off limits. You can deal with them any way you see fit, mutual death in a dual, etc. Try to make it memorable, if you do it.
Oh- but Luke can't die evil. He has to be in the final scene as a Force Ghost, alongside the rest of the gang.

We ask that if you remove any interesting supporting character, you give us someone else to fill the void.
We anticipate Poe and/or Finn being the strategic military brains of the finale opposite Hux, so let one of them learn hard lessons along the way. If you lose any of these, give us someone else we can work with.

Now go make your movie, get to that point any way you choose.

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If you choose to muddle with the Force Powers, you must maintain balance. If Luke dies, so does Snoke. Both can live, or die; but you can't stack the deck going into the final movie, it has to be Rey vs Kylo.
Except that Leia now has Emperor-like super force lightening powers. No "balance" required.

That's one thing I've mentioned before. When it comes to stupid shite like the whole "balance" (also meant to appeal to Asians) and space thetans concepts, fans who hate the prequels still faithfully follow them as canon, another word I hate.

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When I said "balance", I meant within the actual story... as in, keep a competitive balance in the field. Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin and Luke can all appear, but they have to be mentors and such, they can't all gang up on Kylo and drag him kicking and screaming into the Light...
well, maybe that would be a fitting end, actually

I haven't been keeping up. Did we ever figure out who the giant noseling chick with the read hair is? We should probably get on that since she'll likely ascend to command the rebellion.