re: Official "Inception" Thread (***SPOILERS***)

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There are so many variables that he hasn't, or won't, address.

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Same for any other interpretation of the film. So let's look at yours, you think it's real.

And I just need one question really:

What is the limit on dream within a dreams to reach limbo, since with the reality ending Dom and Ariadne have to go there by hooking in?
We never see Dom and Mal go into successive dreams to reach limbo? Therefore, were they even there? And we only see them kill themselves on the train tracks.

Edited out fluff. I really don't think this conversation is going anywhere. Every theory has holes, and you've basically said that people who believe it's a dream are wrong, and insulted a good poster. Sorry for my reaction, but that's just ridiculous.

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We never see Dom and Mal go into successive dreams to reach limbo? Therefore, were they even there?

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Sure they did. Dom says that this is the method that got them there. In the garage, while Eames was impersonating Browning and getting what he could from Fisher, Dom was telling Ariadne about his experience in limbo.

He said that they were exploring the concept of "dreams within dreams", and that he kept pushing and wanted to "go deeper and deeper". He then says , "we just didn't understand how hours could turn into years down there."

No, not that they're wrong, but that they base their theory on sound facts and logistics within the rules the film presents us with. Like this -

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We see them put in and remove the tubes from their wrist at every instance EXCEPT for the ending. Food for thought, that's all.

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I think it's hyperbolic to say that I've insulted someone by simply scrolling past their post.

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Not, not that they're wrong, but that they base their theory on sound facts and logistics within the rules the film presents us with. Like this -

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Baloo made a mistake. A mistake that doesn't make his theory fall apart, so why worry about it?

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I think it's hyperbolic to say that I've insulted someone by simply scrolling past their post.

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Baloo spent posts elaborating other points of his, you obviously didn't read them when before you were locked in a debate.

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I think it's hyperbolic to say that I've insulted someone by simply scrolling past their post.

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I decided save myself time by not reading any more of his posts.

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That is condescending and arrogant. His posts aren't worth your time, sounds like an insult to me.

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What difference would it make whether limbo was 3 levels deep, or 8 levels deep, in relation to my theory that the end is reality?

It's OK to question things, but I'm questioning things within the context of his theory. How do you kill yourself in limbo and wind up in a more superficial layer? And why would an individual who realizes that limbo isn't real be enchanted by a more superficial layer?

My theory is that the old Saito scene is limbo, they kill themselves, and wake up.

I'm not sure how whether limbo is 3 levels deep or 5 levels deep relates to my theory.

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Because in your version, level 4 has to be limbo as well. It's where Dom stays behind. And they have to "jack" into it. They make a conscious choice to "jack" into limbo. How can that be? Why can't you do that from level one? And so forth.

I don't expect you to have good answers for that, at some point you take a leap of faith, but don't disregard the opinions of those who take other leaps of faith.

I'll answe Cs' questions in a second, but I'll start with something Freaux just said (thanks for the support)

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Baloo is saying that Ariadne was used by Miles to attempt to get Dom out of his dream, without it ever being explicitly stated.

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Yes. and there is a LOT of circumstantial evidence to support the theory, which we've covered ad naseum. I really can't get past how interested in Cobb Ariadne is.

Also, I think you're ignoring my posts because I keep asking the question you can't answer. But that's fine. An idea is like a virus, and almost impossible to shake.

I don't believed I've dodged any questions. any time you have asked a question, i have attempted to answer it. Now, you have a new list. I'll be happy to answer them as well.

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He believes Miles and Ariadne were in collusion and plotted this. Why would Miles want to see Dom end up like this? Practically dead?

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Because, as mentioned throughout the film, Cobb is losing his grip on what is real and what is dream. His hold on reality is tenuous at best, and almost certainly bound to get worse. Creating an alternate reality for Cobb to be happy is the best of some admittedly poor options. But, given what we know of Nolan's works, reality is a very nebulous concept. It's real if we believe it. And Cobb believing he's with his kids IS real to him, even if he's in a vegetative state.

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Why was Ariadne needed to design the level, if it is based mostly of his memories?

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This is a critical point, and you keep blowing past it, so slow down here. It's so Cobb will not know it is artificial. The reason Cobb can't stay with Mal in limbo, as has been asked and answered about ten times, is that Cobb KNOWS it is not real. The mind rejects it. However, creating an alternate dream, designed by someone else, can work because Cobb does not know it is artificial. Real is what we perceive to be real. And, yes, this goes back to my Memento argument, which I won't repeat for Cocomo's benefit (and anyone else who hasn't seen Memento). But you can go back to it on this thread. To Cobb, the alternate dream IS reality.

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If it's a closed dream, how do any of them know he would eventually access this dream?

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They don't. That's the leap of faith, which is another theme of the film.

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If it's a shared dream with someone else, who is the host? Why doesn't Dom notice them?

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It's not. No one will dream with Cobb for the rest of their life, too. I think that scenario is untenable, given that no one is willingly going to share a dream for eternity with Cobb.

As for the room of dreamers, yes, they can wake up. But listen to the friggin' dialogue. Roughly quoted from memory, "It's because they can't wake up." The DIALOGUE is telling us something. It's intentional. There are no throwaway lines in the movie. The filmmakers even tell you there is PLACE to put someone in a permanent dream if they can't wake up.

Once again, I don't view this as the only interpretation as you view your theory. I'm not offended by alternate interpreations that are supported. It's an itneresting discussion. but if you throw a hissy fit and ignore anyone who happens to disagree with you... well, you need to earn to grow up, then. Lighten up. and don't pick up your ball and go home when you can't answer questions about your theory, when you demand answers of anyone else.

BTW - you still have addressed my comments on totems, that Cobb violated the rules by choosing someone else's totem and by letting an architect in one what made it unique. I've done you the courtesy of answering your concerns, I expect the same courtesy in return.

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Predators was packed on a tuesday? how small was the theater?

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I'm surprised at how many people have actually seen this film.

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Well, I wouldn't say they "jack" into it, like the Matrix...they just go deeper into another dream.

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Hence the quotations, it's an efficient way to say something that would take 4 words.

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But, we know the ending is limbo, and the uncertainty in limbo's official depth comes from the fact that we don't know how many level's Dom and Mal went.

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Fact: We know Saito's fortress at the end is limbo.
Fiction: We know that level 4 is limbo.

Crucial part of each theory's leap of faith.

The connection between the two is never clear. IN FACT, Dom "wakes up" and is confused, much like what happens when you go from dreamworld to dreamworld. And this is after cutting from the crumbling building. Which would actually support Level 4 NOT being limbo. Which throws Fisher "as real" into question, and posits that we are actually watching Ariadne's construction for Dom.

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But, putting depth aside, my theory is that they are in limbo, die, and wake up in reality.

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In Saito's fortress....the question is level 4.

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We know for a fact Dom was in limbo before with Mal - this is told to us. And, we know for a fact that he was in limbo at the end. I can afford to not concern myself with the depth of limbo, since, in each case, we are told for a fact that they are in limbo. If in either case we we're unsure they were in limbo, then depth would have to be discussed to validate their actual presence in limbo.

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And given the rest of the film, questioning whether or not we are watching limbo is a fundamentally sound way to look at the film.

Think about this: If Dom and Mal were in Limbo, and "Inception" must be done in the dreamer's head. How can Dom incept her from Limbo? How can he plant a thought in her head when he isn't in her dream?

I know your answer, but it's still a leap of faith.

Which brings us to Mal, the only other person who knew the properties of the totem.

Dom discovers her totem, and its properties, while they were in limbo.

They end up dying, and waking up in reality (or even dropping a level). Then, Mal kills herself again. She's either dead, or a level below him.

In either case, she can't host a dream to manipulate that totem because she's on a more superficial layer.

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Saito's fortress at the end, not the first iteration of it.

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whew!