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re: LOST "What They Died For" S6.E16 (Multi-centric)
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:14 pm to OMLandshark
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:14 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
1) Locke's death would certainly send the right message to the Oceanic 6 to get back to the Island. Even Locke himself knew this.
2) Ben wanted to be leader of the Others again and couldn't do that with Locke alive, although I'm not sure if they would have let him, since he lied about talking to Jacob and being born on the Island for so long.
Do you think Elie had any part in this?
1
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:18 pm to OMLandshark
wasn't it Richard who first told Locke he had to go back to get the Oceanic 6 and die to get them to come back?
I seem to remember richard tell Locke during a time flash that "he had to die"
I seem to remember richard tell Locke during a time flash that "he had to die"
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:18 pm to STLSU
quote:
Do you think Elie had any part in this?
A little. He just got the information he needed and killed him when he did.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:20 pm to Tiger Ryno
quote:
wasn't it Richard who first told Locke he had to go back to get the Oceanic 6 and die to get them to come back?
Yea, it was when Locke was flashing through time. MIB told Richard to tell Locke he needed to die and to give him a compass.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:21 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
I just don't see what your problem is with the character's arc.
Because Ben exists out of convenience, not necessity. The story doesn't need him, but the writers write him in and that's obvious.
There is no logical reason for him to be involved in the story. This is proven (and you admit) by the illogical ways people react to him. The writers have to write people's reactions like that so that they don't do what should be done, avoid him, kill him, not believe him, etc.
To make him a part of the story, they have to force other characters to act in unnatural ways, this makes him a bad character. It doesn't matter if he is portrayed well, or if his actions are consistent (and you are right, they are), he disrupts the story because other characters become inconsistent when reacting to him. That's why Ben sucks as a character.
Now, that's not saying he couldn't be a GOOD character, but that would involve a different path to be taken in terms of characters and stories, choices that would have made it better, but that's a longer discussion.
quote:
The only person he has really fooled multiple times is Locke, but Locke's gullible nature sort of excuses it and it certainly leads him to his demise over the series.
Anytime anyone believes Ben, that's him fooling them.
quote:
Ben has remained true to his word in basically all other instances.
Uhhh, you just said yourself:
quote:
Ben wanted to be leader of the Others again and couldn't do that with Locke alive, although I'm not sure if they would have let him, since he lied about talking to Jacob and being born on the Island for so long.
quote:
He was dangerous and secretive to be sure, but he hasn't lied as much as we believe he has to characters not named John Locke.
quote:
Ben wanted to be leader of the Others again and couldn't do that with Locke alive, although I'm not sure if they would have let him, since he lied about talking to Jacob and being born on the Island for so long.
This post was edited on 5/18/10 at 2:24 pm
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:21 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
1) Locke's death would certainly send the right message to the Oceanic 6 to get back to the Island. Even Locke himself knew this.
2) Ben wanted to be leader of the Others again and couldn't do that with Locke alive, although I'm not sure if they would have let him, since he lied about talking to Jacob and being born on the Island for so long.
FWIW, I think the original script had Locke asking Ben to kill him.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:28 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Uhhh, you just said yourself:
Thats the Others beef with Ben, not the survivor's beef with Ben which is what I'm mostly referring to.
quote:
Because Ben exists out of convenience, not necessity. The story doesn't need him, but the writers write him in and that's obvious.
There is no logical reason for him to be involved in the story. This is proven (and you admit) by the illogical ways people react to him. The writers have to write people's reactions like that so that they don't do what should be done, avoid him, kill him, not believe him, etc.
Season 6 I agree, but Ben was needed in Seasons 4 and 5. Ben was needed for the freighter to have an immediate point to being on the Island, and he was needed to kill Locke, get to Oceanic 6 back to the Island, and kill Jacob in Season 5. But there are much better examples of characters who are around and aren't needed (Jin, Sun, Miles, Lapidus, Richard) but are or were recently still around.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:30 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
A little. He just got the information he needed and killed him when he did.
Do you remember the episode "The Lie" where he is in the Lamp Post? That was 70 hours before the window closed. Later when the O5 get to the church/station, Ben lies when he said he has never been there before (surprise, surprise). So I've always wondered if Elie knew Locke was going to kill himself, if she told Ben? He already knew where the station was.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:31 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
Yea, it was when Locke was flashing through time. MIB told Richard to tell Locke he needed to die and to give him a compass.
Exactly. Both sides wanted Locke back, I believe. Team Jacob and Team MIB.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:36 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Season 6 I agree, but Ben was needed in Seasons 4 and 5. Ben was needed for the freighter to have an immediate point to being on the Island, and he was needed to kill Locke, get to Oceanic 6 back to the Island, and kill Jacob in Season 5.
Again, too much detail, not enough broader picture. By writing, what are really, unconvincing ideas they kept Ben in the series. None of these were places that he was needed (your only argument might be with killing Jacob). The story could (and should have) been written differently. As it stands, most of those were very forced moments. Elie could have contacted Sayid directly and hired him to kill people and recruit people, rather than Ben. It would have given his character something to do.
The freighter could have come to the island for multiple reasons. Case in point, Widmore came back this season anyway. And not to chase Ben. Locke could have killed himself, it wouldn't have changed the story.
And Richard should have killed Jacob, it would have been stronger. Boom. There you go. Ben is unneeded. See my point?
quote:
But there are much better examples of characters who are around and aren't needed (Jin, Sun, Miles, Lapidus, Richard) but are or were recently still around.
None of those characters, maybe except for Sun, were given close to the screen time of Ben. Miles and Lapidus are inconsequential, they exist on the periphery of most conflicts and are ok exactly where they are. I'd argue Richard should have had a bigger part. I'd add that this argument could be solved if Ben=Richard or Richard=Ben. And you write in a smaller character (that dies or leaves) to fulfill the role you lost.
Just because writers concoct scenarios where he has to exist, it doesn't negate this:
quote:
There is no logical reason for him to be involved in the story. This is proven (and you admit) by the illogical ways people react to him. The writers have to write people's reactions like that so that they don't do what should be done, avoid him, kill him, not believe him, etc.
This post was edited on 5/18/10 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:44 pm to Freauxzen
I can't wait for tonight. I will have to figure out a way to toast the penultimate episode with a drinking game. 
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:45 pm to STLSU
quote:I don't think that is correct. The only person/entity that wanted Locke to leave, die, and come back was MIB. He started that whole ball of wax.
Exactly. Both sides wanted Locke back, I believe. Team Jacob and Team MIB.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:49 pm to tuck
Well, why did Elie tell Ben to help Locke to bring them all back then? I guess what I am asking is how did she know? Ben via Locke I guess? Elie just knows stuff though. So I don't know.
This post was edited on 5/18/10 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:51 pm to STLSU
quote:
Well, why did Elie tell Ben to help Locke to bring them all back then? I guess what I am asking is how did she know? Ben via Locke I guess? Elie just knows stuff though. So I don't know.
You're falling into the trap, watch yourself if you honestly like the show. Asking these sorts of questions will make it unravel, trust me.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:52 pm to STLSU
quote:I would LOVE to know which side she's on. If she's just some sort of impartial "guider" of events that are "supposed to happen," then it wasn't both camps that wanted dead Locke back on the island. I guess that's all I'm saying.
Well, why did Elie tell Ben to help Locke to bring them all back then? I guess what I am asking is how did she know?
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:53 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
You're falling into the trap, watch yourself if you honestly like the show. Asking these sorts of questions will make it unravel, trust me.
I fell into the trap a long time ago since I started watching a few years back
. I'm one of those guys who has to understand what is going on before I can really enjoy it. That's why the writing and plot development is so critical.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:55 pm to Freauxzen
quote:The minute he I saw his question, I had the same thought. If both camps wanted dead Locke back on the island, it really starts to make no sense if the ultimate goal is to keep MIB on the island. None of them go back, boom, MIB is trapped.
You're falling into the trap, watch yourself if you honestly like the show. Asking these sorts of questions will make it unravel, trust me.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:56 pm to tuck
I don't think Elie is for MIB, at least not willingly. 1970's Elie devoted her life to understanding after 1970's Elie shot her own son after 2004 Elie sent him back to the island (pre incident). Her knowledge of what is going to happen after the incident seems to stop, at least temporarily, as she told Penny in the hospital where Desmond was recovering from his gunshot wound from Ben.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:56 pm to STLSU
quote:
I fell into the trap a long time ago since I started watching a few years back
I don't mean the trap of Lost, but the trap of the show just not being good anymore. Where Miles and I are in.
quote:
I'm one of those guys who has to understand what is going on before I can really enjoy it. That's why the writing and plot development is so critical.
That's what I am saying. Once I started analyzing Lost and it fell apart, I no longer "enjoyed" the show.
Posted on 5/18/10 at 2:58 pm to tuck
quote:
The minute he I saw his question, I had the same thought. If both camps wanted dead Locke back on the island, it really starts to make no sense if the ultimate goal is to keep MIB on the island. None of them go back, boom, MIB is trapped.
at this point, I'm for sitting back like Freauxen suggested. We'll see what happens. I'm looking forward to it.
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