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re: Community and the Death of Quality Network TV
Posted on 5/21/12 at 5:47 pm to Baloo
Posted on 5/21/12 at 5:47 pm to Baloo
quote:
NYPD Blue was massively overrated, and far inferior to Homicide, which was on the air then, but near the end of its run
I have a feeling that NYPD Blue has been called overrated so much at this point that it is probably better than we remember. It still had David Milch making it for a good deal of its run.
1
Posted on 5/21/12 at 5:54 pm to glaucon
We Homicide fanatics were calling NYPD Blue overrated back when it was getting heaped with praise, so we’re entitled to some crowing now that everyone has showed up, late, to our party. Blue was a good show that felt edgy, but was nowhere near the edge like H:LOTS. “Crosetti” is still the finest hour of network TV ever made. (There are some contenders I’d consider: “The Constant” from Lost, “Love’s Labor Lost” from ER, and “Two Cathedrals” from West Wing among them)
To this day, I think Homicide is the best network show ever aired. And its last season is unwatchable (and S6 is mediocre at best), due to network interference ruining every good thing about the show. I fear that’s a fate that awaits all ambitious shows on network TV that don’t get huge ratings.
The Wire is Homicide without network suits screwing it up. It’s based on the same book and has much of the same creative team.
To this day, I think Homicide is the best network show ever aired. And its last season is unwatchable (and S6 is mediocre at best), due to network interference ruining every good thing about the show. I fear that’s a fate that awaits all ambitious shows on network TV that don’t get huge ratings.
The Wire is Homicide without network suits screwing it up. It’s based on the same book and has much of the same creative team.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 5:55 pm to Baloo
quote:
We Homicide fanatics were calling NYPD Blue overrated back when it was getting heaped with praise, so we’re entitled to some crowing now that everyone has showed up, late, to our party. Blue was a good show that felt edgy, but was nowhere near the edge like H:LOTS. “Crosetti” is still the finest hour of network TV ever made. (There are some contenders I’d consider: “The Constant” from Lost, “Love’s Labor Lost” from ER, and “Two Cathedrals” from West Wing among them)
To this day, I think Homicide is the best network show ever aired. And its last season is unwatchable (and S6 is mediocre at best), due to network interference ruining every good thing about the show. I fear that’s a fate that awaits all ambitious shows on network TV that don’t get huge ratings.
The Wire is Homicide without network suits screwing it up. It’s based on the same book and has much of the same creative team.
I pretty much agree here. Homicide was awesome.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 5:58 pm to Baloo
Looking at the ratings for some of the shows in the link I posted, you can tell there was just no competition for the networks back then.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 6:01 pm to ProjectP2294
quote:
Looking at the ratings for some of the shows in the link I posted, you can tell there was just no competition for the networks back then.
I saw that too.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 6:13 pm to Baloo
quote:
We Homicide fanatics were calling NYPD Blue overrated back when it was getting heaped with praise, so we’re entitled to some crowing now that everyone has showed up, late, to our party
I get this sentiment and agree with you but the harping on NYPD Blue being overrated has clouded our collective memory of it. It was still better than most network shows back then and David Milch can write (Deadwood is easily one of the best dramas ever made).
quote:
Blue was a good show that felt edgy, but was nowhere near the edge like H:LOTS. “Crosetti” is still the finest hour of network TV ever made. (There are some contenders I’d consider: “The Constant” from Lost, “Love’s Labor Lost” from ER, and “Two Cathedrals” from West Wing among them)
Just for fun, I think you have to have one of Whedon's classic episodes either Once More With Feeling, The Body, or Out of Gas. More out of left field, I would add Chuck versus the Ring (second season finale...three seasons of mediocrity don't detract from how great this episode was).
quote:
To this day, I think Homicide is the best network show ever aired. And its last season is unwatchable (and S6 is mediocre at best), due to network interference ruining every good thing about the show. I fear that’s a fate that awaits all ambitious shows on network TV that don’t get huge ratings.
The Wire is Homicide without network suits screwing it up. It’s based on the same book and has much of the same creative team.
I actually think this is becoming less and less of a problem as the great cable series are nearing if not exceeding a decent amount of network content. I mean, NBC gave Community and Dan Harmon a legit shot. I don't think you could find me a season three episode that reeks of anything resembling network interferences. If it could have sustained better numbers it would have been fine.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 6:16 pm to glaucon
quote:
I mean, NBC gave Community and Dan Harmon a legit shot.
I know this is the second time you said it, but I'm going to say no. They didn't. Giving it a legit shot is understanding it, promoting it effectively and cultivating an audience.
Just because they left it on air, that doesn't mean they gave it a shot imo. Not anymore.
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 6:17 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 6:41 pm to The Sad Banana
quote:
Community really is streets ahead.
Well done, sir.
quote:
This is all true, however people keep leaving out on huge factor in today's world: DVD sales.
DVD sales is a huge factor in whether a show is allowed to stay on when ratings are bad. DVD sales can save a show, or kill it.
The hurtful truth is, as much as Community fans claim to be fanatical, it is not reflected in the sales of the DVD's for the show.
DVD sales saved Family Guy. They got Firefly a movie. They saved Chuck for two more seasons.
Broadcast companies pay attention to that.
I have to correct this. DVD sales did not save Chuck. The fans saved Chuck by creating the most innovative fan campaign ever, but NBC helped this effort by actually putting Chuck on the "bubble" list and delaying their decision on cancellation/renewal.
For those that don't know, fans actually organized a campaign to buy Subway footlongs on the day of Chuck's 2nd season premier. The actors of the show received this and went to Subways with their fans, and asked the fans to continue their charge. The show responded with shameless Subway promotions in the show (a nod to both Subway and their fans). Some fans donated blood in NBC's name (Have a Heart, Renew Chuck). Chuck's fans won the "Save our Show" vote in USA Today two years in a row.
Chuck's ratings were lower than Community's, but it still got a 3rd, 4th, and 5th season, all on the ratings "bubble."
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 7:58 pm to Freauxzen
Again: I get your points, but the fact of the matter is that you said that television shows going onto netflix does not have any effect on their dvd sales. You haven't provided any backup for that contention.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 8:51 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Why isn't Community available on Netflix? Wouldn't it be smart to allow, then advertise the
show when trying to build an audience?
I almost never watch a show from the beginning air date. I generally will start reading about a show and see what the consensus is and who is saying which show is good. I cut down on a lot of wasted time with this formula which is good for me.
I started reading about Parks and Rec and Community on this board a while back. I immediately went to Netflix and saw that Parks and Rec was on and Community was not. I watched every single Parks and Rec...twice. Now I'm an avid fan of the show. However, NO Community. And here is the real problem. Since it wasn't immediately available on Netflix or anywhere else, I never watched it.
Interestingly, and due in large part to the avid fans on this board, I finally said screw it on Community and got the torrents (which I hardly ever do) for the first 2 and half seasons (mid way through this past year). This is basically two years after I heard about the show originally. I haven't missed an episode since because I've started to DVR them.
It seems so simple. Just make your show available to stream and people will watch it. I almost didn't watch it simply because of that fact. I'm very grateful to the passionate fan base on this board, because Community really is one of my favorite sitcoms ever now...but it almost never was.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 8:54 pm to tuck
quote:
I almost never watch a show from the beginning air date. I generally will start reading about a show and see what the consensus is and who is saying which show is good. I cut down on a lot of wasted time with this formula which is good for me.
I started reading about Parks and Rec and Community on this board a while back. I immediately went to Netflix and saw that Parks and Rec was on and Community was not. I watched every single Parks and Rec...twice. Now I'm an avid fan of the show. However, NO Community. And here is the real problem. Since it wasn't immediately available on Netflix or anywhere else, I never watched it.
Interestingly, and due in large part to the avid fans on this board, I finally said screw it on Community and got the torrents (which I hardly ever do) for the first 2 and half seasons (mid way through this past year). This is basically two years after I heard about the show originally. I haven't missed an episode since because I've started to DVR them.
It seems so simple. Just make your show available to stream and people will watch it. I almost didn't watch it simply because of that fact. I'm very grateful to the passionate fan base on this board, because Community really is one of my favorite sitcoms ever now...but it almost never was.
Should send this letter to NBC. Make sure some tear stains are on it.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 9:01 pm to Freauxzen
I've forwarded the whole thread along with an overnight of my tear-soaked keyboard.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 9:16 pm to Baloo
I think about what trey parker and matt stone said about Family Guy and I think it sort of applies here when discussing shows like Community vs. Chuck Lorre products.
so no it's not that I believe Community is intellectually stimulating entertainment or anything. It's just that you can tell a lot more work goes into the writing of an episode of Community and it shows.
The best thing for Community would have been for NBC to kill it and have Comedy Central buy the rights which was being considered.
quote:
They mostly have families and kids and that’s the most important thing and then they go in to work and write comedy and when it’s five o’clock, it’s time to go. It’s gag humour, and gag humour drives us crazy. Where it’s just, like, “Here’s a gag, here’s a gag”—it’s got nothing to do with what’s going on in the show, just like, “Here’s a gag.” And anyone who writes comedy knows that that is the very easiest, simplest thing to do and you don’t really need any talent to do it, you just learn the craft and do it.
The biggest thing is that you essentially kill yourself for a show—it’s like, you’ve got to die for it. When you’re an artist, you’ve got to say to yourself, “This is all that matters, and if it kills me, so be it.” And then you have the Family Guy writing staff who come in 9-to-5, write their gags and go home. But what I absolutely must say to you is that this totally, purely 100 per cent completely, comes from a place of jealousy. Because when we’re sitting there in our room, it’s three in the morning and we’re 12 hours from having to air and we don’t have, like, a third act, wondering why we do this to ourselves, we’re just totally jealous of their job. Seth MacFarlane is basically in the same position as us except he hasn’t written a fricking thing in four years. I wish I was him. –
so no it's not that I believe Community is intellectually stimulating entertainment or anything. It's just that you can tell a lot more work goes into the writing of an episode of Community and it shows.
The best thing for Community would have been for NBC to kill it and have Comedy Central buy the rights which was being considered.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 9:37 pm to Baloo
I'm usually a lurker on this board and enjoy reading this type of discussion between all of you. I know that Community has a big following on this board and I watch it and like it, but I'd like to ask the board what it is about Community specifically that warrants the love? Can someone offer a few bullet points?
Posted on 5/21/12 at 9:50 pm to CajunAlum Tiger Fan
quote:
I'm usually a lurker on this board and enjoy reading this type of discussion between all of you. I know that Community has a big following on this board and I watch it and like it, but I'd like to ask the board what it is about Community specifically that warrants the love? Can someone offer a few bullet points?
Because it speaks to geeks, specifically film and tv geeks.
And it does so truthfully, not falsely like BBt (and I like BBT).
Posted on 5/21/12 at 10:04 pm to BilJ
quote:
It's just that you can tell a lot more work goes into the writing of an episode of Community and it shows.
I think this is accurate. Not just writing though, props, set design, the whole thing. They also got some really talented directors on board as well.
Whenever I like a show or movie, I buy the DVD so I can watch it with commentary on. One of the overriding themes of the commentary on Community was the actors praising the behind the scenes people for the detail that they put into the props, that basically no one but the actors would ever really even see.
One of them had to do with Pierce reading a speech he wrote to Britta when he thinks she's coming out as gay. The scene lasted like 15 or 20 seconds, and really only highlighted his closing remark. But apparently one of the prop girls actually wrote out the entire speech. 7 or 8 pages front and back, and he read the entire thing for the scene even though they only used a very small part.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 10:10 pm to CajunAlum Tiger Fan
quote:
I'm usually a lurker on this board and enjoy reading this type of discussion between all of you. I know that Community has a big following on this board and I watch it and like it, but I'd like to ask the board what it is about Community specifically that warrants the love? Can someone offer a few bullet points?
Ever watch a movie a second time and think "Man, there are so many little things I missed the first time around?"
Every episode is like that x100. It is very cleverly written, and there is a lot of minor jokes that caters to its audience.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 10:14 pm to lsufan251875
quote:
Ever watch a movie a second time and think "Man, there are so many little things I missed the first time around?"
Every episode is like that x100. It is very cleverly written, and there is a lot of minor jokes that caters to its audience.
OK, I can understand that in what seem to be benign comments on first pass
Posted on 5/21/12 at 10:23 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
I know this is the second time you said it, but I'm going to say no. They didn't. Giving it a legit shot is understanding it, promoting it effectively and cultivating an audience.
Just because they left it on air, that doesn't mean they gave it a shot imo. Not anymore.
NBC has not been able to do this for pretty much any show in their entire line-up. I don't think it is something specific to Community. Best they could have possibly done was put it after the Office, which it really doesn't particularly go with and personally I don't think really would have grown the audience significantly. They gave it two and a half seasons at the same time slot that was suppose to anchor their Thursday comedy block, which they had dominated at one time. I really think they gave it a fair shot. Look, I love the show but its ratings sucked and there is no way to get around the fact that it wasn't doing what NBC needed it to do.
That said and again, bringing back Community without Dan Harmond is so amazingly stupid. They would have been better off just cancelling it and letting last thursday's be the finale (which in my mind it may end up being).
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 10:26 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 10:39 pm to glaucon
quote:
NBC has not been able to do this for pretty much any show in their entire line-up. I don't think it is something specific to Community. Best they could have possibly done was put it after the Office, which it really doesn't particularly go with and personally I don't think really would have grown the audience significantly. They gave it two and a half seasons at the same time slot that was suppose to anchor their Thursday comedy block, which they had dominated at one time. I really think they gave it a fair shot. Look, I love the show but its ratings sucked and there is no way to get around the fact that it wasn't doing what NBC needed it to do.
That said and again, bringing back Community without Dan Harmond is so amazingly stupid. They would have been better off just cancelling it and letting last thursday's be the finale (which in my mind it may end up being).
NBC was aware of the niche comedy that it was. To them it was a perfect show to put up against BBT. And they are right. Any show at the same time as BBT is doomed to fail rating-wise. That is the hard truth and they know it. That is why it lasted so long. Now, NBC feels like BBT may be getting stale, and this is their chance to put a new show in that spot to maybe take over Thursday nights for NBC. The Office and 30 Rock are on their last legs. That means 3 new shows on Thursday nights.
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