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Another "A Few Good Men" Question: Why Didn't Dawson Take the Stand and Why Did Downey?
Posted on 8/20/21 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 8/20/21 at 3:42 pm
This board has analyzed this movie many times and every time I watch it I try to glean something new from it.
Why did the defense team allow Downy to testify? (I realize it's in the script but play along) Dawson was more well spoken and was Downey's leader.
I know this was done to bring drama to the movie but in the real world this would be a blunder...
Also, I found a Lawyer on You Tube the critiques the film by real legal standards. (He said my Cousin Vinny was close on accuracy)
LINK
Why did the defense team allow Downy to testify? (I realize it's in the script but play along) Dawson was more well spoken and was Downey's leader.
I know this was done to bring drama to the movie but in the real world this would be a blunder...
Also, I found a Lawyer on You Tube the critiques the film by real legal standards. (He said my Cousin Vinny was close on accuracy)
LINK
This post was edited on 8/21/21 at 9:56 am
6
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:00 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Dawson was a self-righteous pussy
that's why
that's why
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:31 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Lawyer here. I don't practice criminal law, but do try a lot of civil cases. I am not familiar with military law or court marshals, but normally you don't put a criminal defendant on the stand unless you have a really good reason to. I would imagine the decision to let Downy testify was likeability. Defense Counsel probably thought the jury would like him, relate to him, and find he lacked culpability. The problem with doing that is always cross examination. A skilled trial attorney will, on cross examination, make anyone's credibility questionable, force the witness to admit to bad facts, and impeach with every inconsistency. It's been many years since I saw A Few Good Men, but I seem to recall there was a major inconsistency in his testimony about how long it took him to run a certain training exercise or something like that. Kevin Bacon did his job, and blew that up.
While it is a work of fiction, Aaron Sorkin wrote the stage play and screenplay. Though he's not a lawyer, he really knows his stuff.
While it is a work of fiction, Aaron Sorkin wrote the stage play and screenplay. Though he's not a lawyer, he really knows his stuff.
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:35 pm to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
(He said my Cousin Vinny was close on accuracy)
Well it's close in showing that judges don't put up with any shite in their courtroom.
But no police witness for the prosecution is going to help the defense.
Also trying them together? The prosecutor never alleges which defendant was the shooter but I guess they were just using the Felony Murder Rule.
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:39 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Did Demi Moore do any vetting of Downey? You're right. Since the order was delivered from Kendrick to Dawson, Dawson would be the vital witness.
There's absolutely no way that shouldn't have been discovered prior to trial.
(I do agree that personality-wise, Downey is more likelable than Dawson. But witnesses can be coached-up to be likeable. And the story of him bringing the detained Marine some food, against orders, should make him come off as otherwise sympathetic [if not for learning a lesson from Kendrick knocking him down in rank for disobeying an order].)
There's absolutely no way that shouldn't have been discovered prior to trial.
(I do agree that personality-wise, Downey is more likelable than Dawson. But witnesses can be coached-up to be likeable. And the story of him bringing the detained Marine some food, against orders, should make him come off as otherwise sympathetic [if not for learning a lesson from Kendrick knocking him down in rank for disobeying an order].)
This post was edited on 8/20/21 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:48 pm to jbraua
how well versed are you in bird law?
Posted on 8/20/21 at 4:50 pm to jbraua
quote:
Lawyer here.
When you enter this forum, you will dress "Lawyerly"
Posted on 8/20/21 at 5:15 pm to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
When you enter this forum, you will dress "Lawyerly"
I mean you comb your hair. And wear a suit and tie. And that suit had better be made out of some sort of….cloth.
Posted on 8/20/21 at 5:18 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Posted on 8/20/21 at 5:19 pm to jbraua
quote:
I am not familiar with military law or court marshals
You never met this guy??
quote:
I would imagine the decision to let Downy testify was likeability. Defense Counsel probably thought the jury would like him, relate to him, and find he lacked culpability.
But yeah you’re spot on here.
They even mention it in one of the trial prep scenes that Downey’s “Iowa farm boy” routine will only go so far if he can’t answer their questions faster, then it will look like he’s searching for the truth.
It’s important to remember that Kaffee represented Dawson, while Jo was requested to be a part of Downey’s defense by his “aunt” or whatever.
She was the one that kind of took the lead with Downey and his testimony, that’s why Kaffee was so flabbergasted that she didn’t know he wasn’t even in the room when the order was allegedly given.
Kaffee and Dawson disliked each other and he gave him very little information that wasn’t specifically requested, so I don’t think Kaffee ever even considered putting him on the stand because he assumed everyone else would hate him too. That was a flaw in his thought process imo. The jurors were other service members, many of whom probably would have understood and respected his formal manner and respect for the code and chain of command.
His manner at the trial table likely came off as cold and insensitive, while on the stand it would have translated as more respectful and based on decorum. Pretty much the opposite of the hot head he would have had to be to take matters into his own hands the way the prosecution was portraying the incident.
In a larger sense though, the defense HAD to put one of them on the stand to make the statement that the code red was given as an order, not something they did of their own accord.
At the conclusion of the government’s case, the evidence presented would have been more than sufficient to convict, so defense had to enter testimony into evidence to try to relieve them of responsibility due to the “following orders” argument.
This post was edited on 8/20/21 at 5:39 pm
Posted on 8/20/21 at 5:47 pm to jbraua
quote:
but I seem to recall there was a major inconsistency in his testimony about how long it took him to run a certain training exercise or something like that
Thanks, Galloway.
Posted on 8/20/21 at 6:04 pm to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
I found a Lawyer on You Tube
In all seriousness, My Cousin Vinny wasn't awful in its depiction of criminal law, at least insofar as it had to be entertaining to boot.
A Few Good Men, while it was good drama, wasn't very realistic in the depiction of criminal law, military or otherwise. A lot of blithering, run on statements during examination which wouldn't even be appropriate for argument. I find myself making objections, "Your honor? Is there a question here?" Or, "Objection, your honor, counsel is testifying ... again, and he isn't even under oath."
Posted on 8/20/21 at 6:07 pm to Ace Midnight
My Cousin Vinny is used in law schools to teach procedure
Posted on 8/21/21 at 7:36 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
A Few Good Men, while it was good drama, wasn't very realistic in the depiction of criminal law, military or otherwise. A lot of blithering, run on statements during examination which wouldn't even be appropriate for argument
I’m not sure I agree with this.
Other than Jessup’s rant at the end, I don’t remember much narrative either from witness or attorney.
The questioning and testimony of Downey, the doctor (the six fingered man!!
), and even Kendrick were all pretty appropriate and would be allowed, other than the outburst by Kendrick at the end, but it’s been a while since I’ve rewatched and I’d have to go back to be sure. But yeah the entire “You can’t handle the truth”scene, which is obviously the most well known, would never be allowed. Kevin Bacon objects (strenuously
) to Kaffee’s initial question, but not at any point during Jessup’s epic rant, which is clearly just to provide the dramatic climax, which gives us what might be one of the best monologues in film history. This post was edited on 8/21/21 at 8:15 am
Posted on 8/21/21 at 12:03 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
quote:
(He said my Cousin Vinny was close on accuracy)
Well it's close in showing that judges don't put up with any shite in their courtroom.
But no police witness for the prosecution is going to help the defense.
I have a very good friend that practices criminal law that has told me this movie is the most accurate representation of court room procedural ever put on screen.
Posted on 8/21/21 at 12:30 pm to elprez00
quote:
I have a very good friend that practices criminal law that has told me this movie is the most accurate representation of court room procedural ever put on screen.
Except they just couldn't help themselves in having Pesci and the DA guy approach the witnesses without asking permission of the judge.
The Rainmaker (1997) got that right. Danny Glover scolds Matt Damon for not asking permission to approach the witness.
Posted on 8/21/21 at 12:31 pm to jbraua
quote:
but I seem to recall there was a major inconsistency in his testimony about how long it took him to run a certain training exercise or something like that. Kevin Bacon did his job, and blew that up.
that was about how long it would take for downy to run from his post to the barracks or something...it would up proving that downy could not have been in the barracks when the order was given...or something like that
without jessup incriminating himself (which was not realistic in my view) those two dudes were getting convicted of murder. I don’t see how anyone watching that movie could say kaffee got them off with a brilliant defense strategy
Posted on 8/21/21 at 12:37 pm to cgrand
quote:
without jessup incriminating himself (which was not realistic in my view) those two dudes were getting convicted of murder. I don’t see how anyone watching that movie could say kaffee got them off with a brilliant defense strategy
If Markinson had not killed himself and testified to his involvement in the cover up I think reasonable doubt would have been a real possibility.
Posted on 8/21/21 at 12:49 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Other than Jessup’s rant at the end, I don’t remember much narrative either from witness or attorney.
It's mainly Kaffee during cross. He just gives his theory of the case, repeatedly. An attorney in a desperate quest for a question.
Posted on 8/21/21 at 3:36 pm to Ace Midnight
Gotcha, like I said I haven’t seen it in a few years probably, although I used to watch it so often I thought I had it almost memorized lol.
But yeah I don’t actually have great recall of Kaffee’s examinations I guess.
Although I do love him sparring with Kendrick maybe even more than his back and forth with Jessup.
But yeah I don’t actually have great recall of Kaffee’s examinations I guess.
Although I do love him sparring with Kendrick maybe even more than his back and forth with Jessup.
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