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re: A Song of Ice and Fire (GoT "I read the book" thread)

Posted on 4/19/11 at 2:56 pm to
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
25800 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 2:56 pm to
There's also a prophecy/foretelling/etc that seems to indicate three husbands for Dany. The smiling corpse at the prow of a ship? I really hope that she doesn't marry Victarion or Euron; I really can't stand any of the Greyjoys. No shortage of suitors though: the Martel boy, the two Greyjoys, Young Grif, (who may or may not be her brother), whatever descendant of the Great Bastards is leading the Golden Company and bringing her Aegon's sword. I'm thinking this may be the Knot in question; he's simply running out of time to finish the story in the announced number of books.
This post was edited on 4/19/11 at 2:57 pm
Posted by SLC
Hiwasse, AR
Member since Oct 2007
15522 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 4:10 pm to
IIRC, you're talking about the dragon having three heads, correct? I was thinking Dany was 1, thus leaving room for 2 more.

Who those will be, well there are theories out there. Sentimentally, I would like to see Jon and Tyrion.

Can we go ahead and go into "spoiler" territory? I'd like to hear about theories of both Jon's and Tyrion's parentage.
Posted by audodger
Member since Jun 2010
7080 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 4:23 pm to
A Game of Thrones = Amazing
A Clash of Kings = Amazing
A Storm of Swords =
A Feast for Crows = Good
Posted by Books
BR
Member since Jun 2005
11174 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 4:42 pm to
quote:

Martin is providing a red herring and he's struggling to further develop the magical elements of the series.


guess that's a good a conspiracy as any, but there's really nothing that points to that
Posted by Books
BR
Member since Jun 2005
11174 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 4:53 pm to
quote:

appearently he said the problem he was stuck on was how to deal with Dany
4th book spoiler:



from what I've gathered, it's def something to do w/ her story line, he called it Mereneese knot of having timelines of the several characters that set off to meet Dany meet up along w/ the dozens of other events leading up to it. He was orig. gonna have the 5 yr gap where Dany learned to rule, etc while settling in Mereen. He also needed time for Dany's dragons to grow. All that said, he's said specifically that the title ADWD is not a reference to Dany's invading of Westeros. So, he still has time to develop that over the course of ADWD.

quote:

peaking of Bran's importance....what are your thoughts of Coldhand's story.

Anyone have any theories that are more creative and probable than Benjen Stark?

I'm not able to decide, but it's one of the things I'm looking to forward to most in the next book
This post was edited on 4/19/11 at 4:57 pm
Posted by ATLienTiger
NOLA
Member since Oct 2006
26936 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 5:57 pm to
Don't really have any better ideas personally for Coldhands

Bloodraven will have some connection to present day dealings up north on the Wall. He could possibly be the 3 eyed Crow.

Guy was sent to the Wall a long time ago, and was connected to sorcery.

Also, to an earlier poster who mentioned Young Griff being her brother(possibly), I am pretty sure Young Griff is the son of Jon Connington, the man who was Rhaegar's(her eldest brother) best friend who was exiled to the free cities across the sea. His house symbol is a Griffin by the way.
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
25800 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 6:36 pm to
Spoiler








Its been a while since I re-read SoS but didn't someone recognize Coldhands? (Sam or Bran? I can't remember but I think Sam.) So that raises the question of whether Sam ever met Benjen. And also what happened to Mormont's body? He's really the only other possibility I can think of.

I feel sure that Grif is Connington but is Young Grif really his son by blood? I don't really buy all the crazy theories about an Aegon/randombaby swap but it is possible. I think its more likely that Connington found an orphan with the silver haired Valyrian look and adopted him to use as a weapon for vengeance. (The "mummer's dragon" from Dany's visions surely has to be an imposter Targaryen, huh?)



Edited because I never remember to close parentheses.
This post was edited on 4/19/11 at 7:28 pm
Posted by Volvagia
Fort Worth
Member since Mar 2006
52489 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:24 pm to
Sam never met Benjen, if I remember correctly.

He left before Sam arrived.

One thing I wondered though.

Is Coldhands, whomever he is, an Other?

Doesn't seem to be a wright from what we have seen of them, but I find it hard to believe he is an Other considering who they are claimed to serve/how he saves Sam to ensure Bran finishes his journey, which will probably make him a power in the war to come
Posted by fouldeliverer
Lannisport
Member since Nov 2008
13538 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:29 pm to
Who Is Coldhands?

This is a good write up.


quote:

Midway through A Storm of Swords, Sam and Gilly are saved by a strange wandering man with black, cold hands and a mysterious power over birds. Later in the book, Bran and company go underneath the Wall to join up with this enigmatic figure. Sam and Gilly nickname him “Coldhands.”

But who is Coldhands, really? Could he possibly be a character we have met before? Or is he someone else entirely?

First, let’s look at what description we have of him. From page 536:

“Brother!” The shout cut through the night, though the shrieks of a thousand ravens. Beneath the trees, a man muggled head to heels in mottled blacks and grays sat astride an elk. “Here,” the rider called. A hood shadowed his face.

...The rider wore no glove. His hand was black and cold, with fingers as hard as stone.

The fact that Coldhands refers to Sam as ‘brother’ and wears black seems to suggest that he is a member of Night’s Watch. Beyond that, we can infer nothing mroe from this chapter besides the fact that Coldhand rides an elk and has some control over ravens.

From page 635, we learn a little more. Coldhands says that he was sent to find someone, who turns out to be Bran. He also knows about the existence of the Black Gate underneath the Nightfort. A quote:

“He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. The wights have blue eyes, though, and they don’t have tongues, or they’ve forgetten how to use them.”

...”Why didn’t you bring him through this Black Gate too?”

“He...he can’t.”

“Why not?”

“The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it...old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall.”

Here, Sam implies that Coldhands does not have blue eyes. Therefore, we can pretty much rule out the possibility of him being a run-of-the-mill wight. Also, even though he dresses in black and calls Sam ‘brother,’ he cannot pass beneath the Wall. Why? Let’s review the candidates that have been put forth as possibilities for Coldhands.

1) Benjen Stark

The most obvious possibility, and probably the one that immediately leapt to every reader’s head. Benjen has been missing for three books, but no body has been found. For all we know, Ben is still out there with his four surviving rangers. And someone buried the cache of dragonglass that Ghost found on the Fist of First Men. Sam would not recognize Benjen; Ben had gone missing before Sam arrived at Castle Black. Finally, this may be the reason why the chapter is cut off before Bran meets Coldhands; Bran would recognize Benjen and thus spoil the mystery.

However, Benjen has ‘blue-gray eyes’ (GoT, pg. 53), which may or may not be what Sam meant when he said Coldhands did not have blue eyes.

It seems likely that Benjen is going to make a reappearance sometime in the series, or, at the very least, we will discover what happened to him. He has been referred to too many times for this not to happen.

The question is, of course, how Benjen developed his seemingly-magical control over animals, and why he cannot go underneath the Wall. There are hundreds of possibilities concerning this, but none have any evidence to back them up. So, while Benjen is a likley candidate based on the circumstances, there is still some confusion regarding him.

2) Stonesnake

A grizzled ranger from Shadow Tower who accompanies Jon and Qhorin to scout the Skirling Pass, Stonesnake disappeared near the end of A Clash of Kings when Qhorin sent up over a high mountain pass on foot as a last ditch effort to reach the Fist and warn Mormont of what was happening with the wildings. He has not been seen or heard from since, though he is listed as still being alive in the appendix to A Storm of Swords. And in all likelihood, Sam would probably not recognize Stonesnake; they were only on the Fist together for a short time.

Beyond that, Stonesnake has the exact same advantages and drawbacks going for him as Benjen does. He has a reason to wear black and call Sam ‘brother.’ But it is still a mystery how he coudl control the animals and not go under the Wall. So, if Coldhands is one of these two candidates, is is most likely Benjen, simply because Benjen’s character is still being referred to and in the reader’s mind, while Stonesnake is pretty much forgotten.

3) Craster's Son

For a long time, Craster has been leaving his sons out as a sacrifice to the Others. But what if one happened to escape? There is no age given to Coldhands, but if he is in his twenties to thirties, it is not that much of a stretch for him to be one of Craster’s sons from long ago.

However, Craster’s daughters Gilly and Nella both seem to speak of the sons as if they have witnessed their fate firsthand. (SoS, pg. 380). Nella, in particular, calls wights ‘Craster’s sons.’ Could one small boy really have escaped this sacrificial ritual? It seems unlikely, and he would have no reason to call Sam ‘brother.’ So one of Craster’s sons seems an unlikely candidate, albeit it still could be possible.

4) Ser Waymar Royce

It has been suggested that Coldhands might really be Waymar, the young ranger who was killed in the prologue by Others, only to come back as a wight to strangle Will. However, this is not even a remote possibility. There is no conceivable reason why Waymar would kill his comrade Will, and then later be helping Sam and Gilly. Also, Waymar’s eyes were blue after he was resurrected. (GoT, pg. 11). Unless his experienced both a change in temperment and eye color, Waymar is not Coldhands.

5) Will

Another slim possibility for Coldhands is Will, the young poacher-turned-ranger who watches as the Others slaughter Waymar, only to be strangled by Waymar’s wight. When we last left him in the prologue of A Game of Thrones, Waymar’s cold hands were clutching his neck.

But this is quite a strectch to assume that Will somehow survived this encounter to become Coldhands, and quite contradictory to GRRM’s style to bring back a character so clearly and obviously dead. If Coldhands is a black brother that we have met, Benjen and Stonesnake are both much more likely possibilities.

6. A 'Good' Wight

It has been suggested that Coldhands is really a dead corpse running around not unlike the undead wights that the Others seem to be controlling. However, as Coldhands is helping out Bran and Sam, it seems as if this is a wight on the good guys' side, or perhaps even one controlled by the Children of the Forest.
Like the other candidates, there is not much direct evidence to back this up, yet the idea is certainly appealing. As one Doremus Mallister has pointed out, the Night's Watch vows (GoT, pg. 522) include the line, "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." If Coldhands is a former Night's Watch ranger who is dead, than this explains why he is dressed in black and calling Sam 'brother,' even though he cannot pass beneath the Wall. Certainly this is the only explanation we have for this apparent contradiction.


This post was edited on 4/19/11 at 7:30 pm
Posted by fouldeliverer
Lannisport
Member since Nov 2008
13538 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:29 pm to
quote:

Conclusion

In conclusion, every possible candidate for Coldhands put forth has some sort of contradiction that defies explanation. Considering all the characters we know, Benjen seems the most likely candidate as of present, there are still several things that have to be resolved before this makes sense. The reason for this, and the flaws in Stonesnake’s story, is because of an apparanent contradiction that Coldhands is a brother of Night’s Watch but cannot go underneath the Wall. (This could, of course, possibly be because Coldhands is dead--see point 6.)

From the information we know, it seems more likely, as of present, that Coldhands is a newly introduced character that we never met before his appearance in Storm of Swords. Truly, this is a much more likely possibility then sitting around trying to come up with implausible stories as to how Benjen could possibly be Coldhands.
Posted by Volvagia
Fort Worth
Member since Mar 2006
52489 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:34 pm to
I like the sixth choice the best
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
25800 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:37 pm to
Ahh, I guess I remembered the greeting "Brother" as being more familiar. I need to reread Storm before Dance comes out.


quote:

Coldhands says that he was sent to find someone, who turns out to be Bran.



So who sent him? The Children of the Forest?
This post was edited on 4/19/11 at 7:40 pm
Posted by fouldeliverer
Lannisport
Member since Nov 2008
13538 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 7:39 pm to
yeah I'm in middle of GoT reread, but I'm tackling a way of kings right now too so progress is slow.
Posted by SLC
Hiwasse, AR
Member since Oct 2007
15522 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 9:34 pm to
I believe I'll reread the series, I haven't read the series since Feast came out, what was that 2005?
Posted by ornagestorm
Oregon
Member since Jun 2008
5105 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 9:52 pm to
quote:

I believe I'll reread the series, I haven't read the series since Feast came out, what was that 2005?


I'm going to reread them again before the new one comes out. I have reread parts here and there but have not had a complete reread yet.

I do not see Coldhands being one of Castor's sons. The baby would have to been able to survive out in the forest and snow as a baby.



Posted by SLC
Hiwasse, AR
Member since Oct 2007
15522 posts
Posted on 4/19/11 at 9:55 pm to
I have no insight or hunch as to Coldhands's identity, but I can't wait to find out.


I think a reread would be very fun. I look forward to it.
Posted by MediTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2010
250 posts
Posted on 4/20/11 at 11:14 am to
There have been theories that Coldhands is Blood Raven. Justifications being his connections to both ravens and the Nights Watch(he was Lord Commander) as well as his rumored magical abilities.

As to who sent him (and the one eyed crow) to find Bran, I have to believe it was the children of the forest.
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
25800 posts
Posted on 4/20/11 at 11:27 am to
Ahhh, Bloodraven...., I like it.
Posted by PurpleandGold Motown
Birmingham, Alabama
Member since Oct 2007
23164 posts
Posted on 4/20/11 at 1:14 pm to
quote:

Martin was going to include the "northern" characters in the 4th book, but it got too big. He ended up splitting the 4th in to two books and the one due in July is the POV of those characters missed in the 4th. Both are leading to the climactic 6th book.


That's not quite accurate, but it's close. I think he would have been better served to just skip ahead 5 years like he originally planned. Martin did write himself into a corner. He apparently learned nothing from Robert Jordan. Martin also has a piss poor work ethic or...
He has realized that this is his opus. This is his master work and is trying to milk it for all it's worth.
Don't get me wrong. I love Martin's writing. I love and have all the Wild Card books. I love Fevre Dream and the Armageddon Rag, but I'm not too fond of Martin himself. Martin is very impressed with himself. He views himself as an artist and not a craftsman. As an artist he is above petty things like deadlines and the demands of his clients...

For high fantasy with complex characters and stories...I would definitely recommend Steven Erikson. His stuff is phenomenal and what's even better is the fact that ALL TEN BOOKS ARE PUBLISHED! THE SERIES IS DONE!

I also love anything by Jim Butcher and am still pissed that the writer's strike killed the Dresden Files series on SyFy,

Oh if you want to read a interesting blog dedicated to all the fricked up things GRRM has done and said over the years... FINISH THE BOOK GEORGE!
Posted by Books
BR
Member since Jun 2005
11174 posts
Posted on 4/20/11 at 2:41 pm to
quote:

I think he would have been better served to just skip ahead 5 years like he originally planned.
then he'd be left w/ story full flashbacks and characters having to discuss what they've been doing the last 5 yrs after several books worth of lead up. I'd rather the man take his time and put out another book on par w/ the fist 3. I dont' agree w/ hardly any of his personal views, but the hate generated from impatient fans is pretty ridiculous. How long did Tolkein take to write TLotR, 12 yrs? and that entire trilogy is as long as one of GRRM's books
This post was edited on 4/20/11 at 2:49 pm
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