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re: Prime Tyson v Holyfield/Lewis?
Posted on 11/23/24 at 2:28 pm to Boodis Man
Posted on 11/23/24 at 2:28 pm to Boodis Man
Boodis Man, is this a joke? You really think beating a blown up light heavyweight like Spinks was impressive? What great heavyweight in history would not have crushed Spinks? He would barely be a good sparring partner for Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Frazier, Lewis, and about twenty more. Spinks, lol.
2
Posted on 11/23/24 at 2:34 pm to JackDempsey
quote:
You really think beating a blown up light heavyweight like Spinks was impressive?
There was a Sports illustrated article before the Tyson fight where Spinks basically admitted he was scared because he knew he wasn't that good.
Dude took a paycheck.
Walked into the ring mentally to flop on his arse as quick as possible.
This post was edited on 11/23/24 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 11/23/24 at 2:39 pm to JackDempsey
quote:
What great heavyweight in history would not have crushed Spinks?
Larry Holmes
Posted on 11/23/24 at 2:55 pm to Boodis Man
If we are basing the GOAT status on successful title defenses, Larry Holmes has an argument.
Here are the top 4 boxers based on that metric:
1. Joe Louis had 25 successful defenses.
2. Wladimir Klitschko achieved 23 successful title defenses over his career
3. Larry Holmes defended his heavyweight title 20 times between 1978 and 1985.
4. Muhammad Ali has 19 successful title defenses during his career
Here are the top 4 boxers based on that metric:
1. Joe Louis had 25 successful defenses.
2. Wladimir Klitschko achieved 23 successful title defenses over his career
3. Larry Holmes defended his heavyweight title 20 times between 1978 and 1985.
4. Muhammad Ali has 19 successful title defenses during his career
Posted on 11/23/24 at 3:17 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
If we are basing the GOAT status on successful title defenses, Larry Holmes has an argument. Here are the top 4 boxers based on that metric: 1. Joe Louis had 25 successful defenses. 2. Wladimir Klitschko achieved 23 successful title defenses over his career 3. Larry Holmes defended his heavyweight title 20 times between 1978 and 1985. 4. Muhammad Ali has 19 successful title defenses during his career
And yet he couldn’t defeat spinx in two tries….same spinx some guy in this thread doesn’t want to give credit to Tyson for destroying
Posted on 11/23/24 at 3:32 pm to litenin
Hell no!
He whupped a lot of tomato cans and got whipped by decent fighters.
Most overrated boxer of all time.
Pinklan thomas, trevor berbick, tony tubbs and tony tucker can build your win-loss record. But that is no historical resume.
ANYTIME he fought a dude with talent, he was clowned.
He whupped a lot of tomato cans and got whipped by decent fighters.
Most overrated boxer of all time.
Pinklan thomas, trevor berbick, tony tubbs and tony tucker can build your win-loss record. But that is no historical resume.
ANYTIME he fought a dude with talent, he was clowned.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 3:42 pm to thegambler
quote:
Most overrated boxer of all time.
, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
We all had Mike Tyson's Punch out on Nintendo.... We believed.
You look at him honestly in hindsight? He whipped nobody worth a lick....and when he faced skill, big men, he crumbled.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 4:07 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Tyson is deep down a fraidy cat according to Teddy Atlas.
Once a fighter didn't buy into his bully persona, he was toast
Didn't Teddy Atlas predict before the second Tyson-Holyfield fight that Tyson would get himself disqualified once he realized he wouldn't be able to beat Holyfield in the early rounds (which Tyson infamously did by twice biting Holyfield's ear)?
I'll admit I'm not the biggest boxing guy, but I've always heard it said that Tyson's small stature and relatively short arms left him vulnerable to big, rangy fighters who could keep him at bay with the jab and stand up to his style in the early rounds, i.e. guys like Holyfield, Lewis and even Douglas.
I was born in '83, so I was just a kid when Tyson was in his prime, but to us he was like a superhero, a mythical athletic figure who was on a whole other level from everyone around him at the time, similar to Michael Jordan and Bo Jackson during that same era. Looking back at his record though (again, I'm not a big boxing guy so my opinion doesn't mean much) there really just doesn't seem to be that much meat on the bone. His best wins were against an over the hill Larry Holmes and an undersized, completely checked out Michael Spinks. Apart from that it's wins over some good, but hardly great guys like Razor Ruddock or Trevor Berbick.
In a weird way, Tyson going to prison might have been the best thing to happen to his legacy in the long term. He got to keep his "baddest man on the planet" designation and become a cautionary tale of wasted talent, instead of being known as a guy who could decisively beat upper-mid level talent, but couldn't quite beat the guys who were at the absolute top of the mountain.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 4:27 pm to IggyReilly
Here is an excerpt from an interview with Boxing Manager/Trainer Gil Clancy who was based in New York and knew D’Amato, Atlas, Rooney, etc.
He sums up Tyson perfectly. Pay attention to the bold part. Tyson was always a mental midget.
LINK
He sums up Tyson perfectly. Pay attention to the bold part. Tyson was always a mental midget.
quote:
ZL: This is a non sequitur, but I wanted to hear some of your thoughts on Mike Tyson. He’s going to be fighting again soon. Had he stayed the course, do you think he could’ve become one of the very best heavyweights of all time?
GC: Oh, absolutely, he had the potential. But even in the amateurs, when Teddy Atlas was taking care of him, if a guy would stand up to him and hit him with a couple of punches, he didn’t want to come out for the next round. Teddy would have to beg him, and push him, and everything else.
ZL: I didn’t know that. I knew that he’d get real scared before fights, but once he was in the ring, he was fine.
GC: No, no. If things didn’t go well, he wasn’t too good. He’s a bully. If he doesn’t bully you…that’s the way Holyfield beat him. Holyfield was one of the first guys to punch right back when he got hit. Tyson wasn’t used to that, and that’s what happened to him in both fights with Holyfield.
ZL: Of course Holyfield was just following Buster Douglas’ example, as he was the first guy to knock Tyson off his pedestal—and on his arse.
GC: I don’t know if you remember, but in that fight when Buster Douglas was coming down from his dressing room to the ring…I was watching it on TV with my wife and I said, ‘Nancy, this guy’s coming down to the ring dancing, like he’s got a lot of confidence in himself.’ Now, most of the guys who fought Tyson—like Alex Stewart was a disgrace, you know, guys like that…But this guy (Douglas) seemed like he was going to go and fight. Sure enough, he did.
ZL: Would a mentally and physically prime Tyson have struggled with a Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe?
GC: Yeah, absolutely. Guys who would hit him back.
ZL: Would Tyson’s height disadvantage and short arms also pose problems for him against those giants?
GC: I’d say yes.
LINK
Posted on 11/23/24 at 6:18 pm to ronricks
Great post. I watched many a bout that was called by Gil Clancy and Tim Ryan. Those were the glory days of boxing for me.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 6:29 pm to JackDempsey
Tucker was doing well against Tyson until he broke his hand in the 4th round.
He kinda laid the blueprint for Douglas and was the first guy to really get Tyson's attention.
He kinda laid the blueprint for Douglas and was the first guy to really get Tyson's attention.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 6:29 pm to ronricks
quote:
No, no. If things didn’t go well, he wasn’t too good. He’s a bully. If he doesn’t bully you…that’s the way Holyfield beat him. Holyfield was one of the first guys to punch right back when he got hit.
Teddy Atlas said he knew why Tyson bit Holyfield's ear...he was trying to get out of the fight. And when the first bite didn't disqualify him, he bit his ear again.
This post was edited on 11/23/24 at 6:30 pm
Posted on 11/24/24 at 7:00 am to JackDempsey
quote:
I watched many a bout that was called by Gil Clancy and Tim Ryan.
Clancy was awesome on CBS and later HBO. He was a great trainer and had an incredible ability to see things before they were going to happen in a fight. One thing that has hurt Boxing is all the old extremely knowledgeable trainers like Clancy, Futch, Arcel, Steward, etc are dead. These guys today aren’t worth a shite.
Posted on 11/24/24 at 7:33 am to Boodis Man
Holmes had gotten old. 78 Holmes from Norton fight demolishes him.
Posted on 11/24/24 at 8:56 am to prplhze2000
Holmes got beat by Carl Williams, but got the decision anyway because Williams didn't "beat the champ bad enough".
Posted on 11/24/24 at 10:03 am to litenin
Tyson is the most overrated fighter in boxing history
Posted on 11/24/24 at 10:44 am to SportsGuyNOLA
quote:
Tyson is the most overrated fighter in boxing history
He came at the perfect time. Holmes while a great fighter his reign was pretty much boring and his age and skills were deteriorating almost immediately after the Cooney fight. He had some real close calls before the first Spinks fight. Tyson came along and started knocking everyone out. A lot of it was matchmaking (there wasn’t a better matchmaker than Cus D’Amato then after D’Amato died Jim Jacobs took over again another excellent matchmaker ) his first 19 fights were all handpicked guys who couldn’t fight back. Quick Tillis took Tyson the distance and gave Tyson a little bit of trouble in a few rounds. D’Amato knew Tyson’s mental limitations he knew deep down Tyson was a scared bully who needed confidence at all times. They (Cus, Atlas, then Rooney) knew they had an emotional fighter who if things weren’t going his way would and could implode. It was all by design. Tyson was knocking everyone out and using intimidation to scare the hell out of all those mediocre mid 80’s heavyweights who were playing musical belts with each other until Tyson came along and was able to unify them. You can only fight who is available and Tyson pretty much fought them all. He gets credit for that. But Buster Douglas put an end to it. He was another guy who hadn’t lived up to his potential and had lost to the guys Tyson was beating. Douglas was able to put it all together for one night and laid the blueprint on how to beat Tyson. Jab him. Push him in the clinches. Punch when he punches using your reach advantage so you land first. It was brilliant. Holyfield just took it a step further and used even more bullying tactics and threw even more punches than Douglas did. Those 1980 to 1989 Heavyweights had several fighters with huge potential but never lived up to it mostly because the increase in purses made them lazy and they either were on coke booze or both. Tyson was able to stay straight until 1989 and take advantage of it. He lived and breathed boxing. The other guys didn’t.
Posted on 11/24/24 at 12:31 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
No one knocked out Big George in the 90s.
It’s well known in boxing circles that Tyson and Foreman both ducked each other.
Posted on 11/24/24 at 4:39 pm to olemc999
To me, peak Tyson was not beating Michael S.
It was when he beat the dog out of a very cagey, very professional's professional Frank Bruno the first time. He'd unfortunately just fired Kevin Rooney.
Prime Tyson would absolutely dogwalk a Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko. Styles make fights, so I tend to think the Prime Holyfield fight would be a great one, that I'd love to have seen.
That said, Mike burned out incredibly fast. By the time he went to prison, he was already becoming spent force that just needed a shore to be washed up on
It was when he beat the dog out of a very cagey, very professional's professional Frank Bruno the first time. He'd unfortunately just fired Kevin Rooney.
Prime Tyson would absolutely dogwalk a Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko. Styles make fights, so I tend to think the Prime Holyfield fight would be a great one, that I'd love to have seen.
That said, Mike burned out incredibly fast. By the time he went to prison, he was already becoming spent force that just needed a shore to be washed up on
This post was edited on 11/24/24 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 11/24/24 at 4:57 pm to BoardReader
quote:
Prime Holyfield fight would be a great one, that I'd love to have seen.
Still gotta give Holyfield credit though, he was 4 years older than Tyson.
Bowe vs Tyson is what we were all truly robbed of.
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