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No, the "6 rings" argument shows that people are sheep....
Posted on 5/2/18 at 4:02 am
Posted on 5/2/18 at 4:02 am
....unable or unwilling to think critically and form conclusions independently.
How so? Because the following two statements cannot be denied:
(a) team accomplishments are a comically terrible way to evaluate individual players
(b) the notion that team accomplishments are not only an unterrible way to evaluate individual players, but literally the definitive way of evaluating them. Why this idea has gained widespread acceptance is a slighlty separate question, but the answer is essentially a restatement of point #1.
Which is that conventional wisdom can become accepted wisdom -- and will in fact nearly always do so -- in the absence of individuals willing and able to critically analyze whether the correct answer is different from the "conventional wisdom" and to what extent.
Because people, the sheep that they are -- and if you are reading this, do understand that you probably fall into this category yourself -- don't apply such critcally independent analysis which is the prerequisite for calling out nonsense as nonsense.
You know, like:
(1) team accomplishments are an appropriate way to rate individual players, or
(2) defense wins championships, or
[insert silly "conventional wisdom mistruths here]
I say that the only excuse for not being able ot formulate independent thoughts is being too stupid to do so. And even then, go down trying...it's better than than being a....

How so? Because the following two statements cannot be denied:
(a) team accomplishments are a comically terrible way to evaluate individual players
(b) the notion that team accomplishments are not only an unterrible way to evaluate individual players, but literally the definitive way of evaluating them. Why this idea has gained widespread acceptance is a slighlty separate question, but the answer is essentially a restatement of point #1.
Which is that conventional wisdom can become accepted wisdom -- and will in fact nearly always do so -- in the absence of individuals willing and able to critically analyze whether the correct answer is different from the "conventional wisdom" and to what extent.
Because people, the sheep that they are -- and if you are reading this, do understand that you probably fall into this category yourself -- don't apply such critcally independent analysis which is the prerequisite for calling out nonsense as nonsense.
You know, like:
(1) team accomplishments are an appropriate way to rate individual players, or
(2) defense wins championships, or
[insert silly "conventional wisdom mistruths here]
I say that the only excuse for not being able ot formulate independent thoughts is being too stupid to do so. And even then, go down trying...it's better than than being a....

Posted on 5/2/18 at 4:26 am to MidnightVibe
quote:
people are sheep
Yes, people are sheep. But perhaps that's a good thing. If people weren't sheep, we would have no borders or religion. I'm not sure people are well-behaved enough to handle that.
Posted on 5/2/18 at 5:13 am to MidnightVibe
Yes, you have some special insight that nobody else on here is smart enough comprehend. Get the frick outta here. 
Posted on 5/2/18 at 5:27 am to MidnightVibe
His name is Tom Brady..
I'll see my may out :|
I'll see my may out :|
Posted on 5/2/18 at 5:32 am to MidnightVibe
(I was drunk)
This post was edited on 5/2/18 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:15 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
We have already proven without a shadow of a doubt that Lebron deniers
This show just how GOAT arguments have jumped the shark to stick with animal metaphors. It just becomes a generational pissing match. I’d be willing to bet you are to young to see Jordan play so you go with Lebron, 10 years ago it was Kobe.
As a GenXer old enough to have seen both Jordan and Lebron’s entire career, MJ and LBJ are the 2 best players I’ve seen, quibbling over who’s better is ultimately meaningless, we’re arguing over the hottest model in the swimsuit issue, who pick first
Ring counting, who had better teammates, who won “sooner” the different rules /style of their time are all factors to be considered but relying on just 1 is kind of lazy.
Right now I’d take Jordan. Maybe it’s because I watched him when I was growing up maybe because we put him there first and it’s hard to knock off the king. Lebron’s career is still going and he could add to it.
But looking at the stats I’m not as familiar with advanced stats in basketball but Jordan is #1 27.91 in career PER, LBJ #2 27.68 so it's close. Single Season Wilt has the top 2 MJ is 3 and LBJ 4. MJ has 4 of top 10, LBJ 2 but hes 11 and 13. Playoff Career Jordan 1, LBJ 3. Single season playoff LBJ 2 MJ 5 (the real GOAT Hakeem the dream Olajuwon is #1
A case can be made for both, let’s just enjoy watching LeBron while we can without denigrating other players or fans
This post was edited on 5/2/18 at 9:16 am
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:23 am to MidnightVibe
quote:
(a) team accomplishments are a comically terrible way to evaluate individual players
Well, wasn't he Finals MVP in all of those? Not to mention the 1 year Jordan was out, they did not win a title. I think it's pretty clear MJ was the reason that team won so many games and Finals.
Still think Lebron is goat, though. Nearly every other stat leads me to this conclusion. But I understand the rings argument as well, because of how much impact MJ had in those runs.
This post was edited on 5/2/18 at 9:25 am
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:27 am to MidnightVibe
dude, you are really upset about all of this. step away from the computer monitor.
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:27 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
Lebron deniers
For you, is this term:
-People who deny his greatness
or
-People who deny he is the GOAT
Because I think he's great. I think he's the 2nd greatest player ever. But he isn't MJ.
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:33 am to MidnightVibe
I mean that's not the only argument.
The argument includes his worldwide appeal and growing the entire sport beyond the United States.
It also includes his ability to score unlike anyone prior
It also includes his ability to shut down the other team's best scorer on a nightly basis
On the court LBJ may be as good as Michael, but he may never have existed and been the player he is if not for MJ.
I'm thankful as hell we get to watch a talent like LeBron play basketball
The argument includes his worldwide appeal and growing the entire sport beyond the United States.
It also includes his ability to score unlike anyone prior
It also includes his ability to shut down the other team's best scorer on a nightly basis
On the court LBJ may be as good as Michael, but he may never have existed and been the player he is if not for MJ.
I'm thankful as hell we get to watch a talent like LeBron play basketball
Posted on 5/2/18 at 9:50 am to Buckeye06
quote:
On the court LBJ may be as good as Michael
In the debate about who the best basketball player is, this is all that matters. Stuff that happens on the court.
Jordan's "global icon" status and LeBron's shitty political views are separate. It amazes me that no one gets this.
Posted on 5/2/18 at 10:27 am to VADawg
quote:
Jordan's "global icon" status and LeBron's shitty political views are separate. It amazes me that no one gets this.
Because they aren't separate at all. Sports is entertainment first and foremost. It is why the salaries are what they are and why people idolize players the way they do. Therefore, those who create more entertainment value should be recognized for it.
The point I was making is that Lebron isn't nearly as gifted or skilled as he is without being able to see Jordan do it before him. That is true of a lot of people, but if you ask almost every great basketball player of the last 30 years (aside from centers) they will tell you Jordan had a huge influence on their game.
Posted on 5/2/18 at 11:51 am to Buckeye06
quote:
Because they aren't separate at all. Sports is entertainment first and foremost. It is why the salaries are what they are and why people idolize players the way they do. Therefore, those who create more entertainment value should be recognized for it.
So LeBron's political values are correlated to his play on the court?
Posted on 5/2/18 at 12:38 pm to VADawg
quote:
So LeBron's political values are correlated to his play on the court?
If you can't determine how politics for Lebron and Michael Jordan creating an international craze for basketball are different I can't help you
Posted on 5/2/18 at 1:06 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
If you can't determine how politics for Lebron and Michael Jordan creating an international craze for basketball are different I can't help you
They are, but that also has absolutely no bearing on who is the better basketball player. That's more along the lines of most iconic player, which is a totally separate discussion.
This post was edited on 5/2/18 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 5/2/18 at 1:16 pm to VADawg
quote:
That's more along the lines of most iconic player, which is a totally separate discussion.
ERAs They are so different... IMO each would do very well if their roles were switched.. However Bron wold struggle with the very physical play of say the Knicks defense of the 90's.... I mean Hakkem was a freak as was Ewing and Oakley and Rodman....
Posted on 5/2/18 at 1:18 pm to dukke v
quote:
However Bron wold struggle with the very physical play of say the Knicks defense of the 90's.... I mean Hakkem was a freak as was Ewing and Oakley and Rodman....
LeBron is a 6'8 260 pound freight train who might be the most physically gifted human to ever step on a basketball floor. He'd do just fine dealing with physicality and would absolutely torch all of those guys if they were isolated on him
Posted on 5/2/18 at 2:03 pm to MidnightVibe
If the team accomplishment amount argument is the only argument people can rely on to justify a player being superior to another in an all-time context, then their argument was pretty damn weak to begin with. I can EASILY make an argument Michael Jordan's the GOAT without putting so much weight behind "6-0" because I can critically think and I know what Jordan represented as a complete 2-guard and the stats and accolades reflect that just like I know what LeBron represents with total package reservoir of attributes and production over a VERY LONG period of time. It's like the Russell-Chamberlain argument, Chamberlain was more talented, dominated the sport, and influenced the game in terms of widening the paint, Russell had the better team and was a great leader but Wilt>Russell I mean cmon. Thing we have to acknowledge is that none of the West teams Jordan played in the Finals were unequivocally superior to the Bulls during that stretch with possible exception to Magic's Lakers but Scott and Worthy got injured and those Bulls capitalized on that. Except for the 2011 Mavs, the Spurs and the Warriors are/were obviously superior to Bron's teams when taking context into consideration, you talk about stacked decks? Those were the epitome of the stacked deck concept as relates to NBA championship basketball.
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