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re: Modern NBA defenses are so tough
Posted on 1/23/24 at 7:51 am to SelaTiger
Posted on 1/23/24 at 7:51 am to SelaTiger
quote:
That’s why nobody should ever compare Lebron to MJ. MJ had to go up against teams like the Pistons while Lebron goes up against his soft booty buddies.
I would love to see Bill Laimbeer and Rodman from that era against Lebron of this era. I am not sure Lebron aka "Mr safe spaces" would be able to take it without having a mental break down each night.
This post was edited on 1/23/24 at 7:52 am
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Posted on 1/23/24 at 7:58 am to lsufanva
quote:
As for the strategy, also a factor but it includes the changing of rules.
The NBA made some rule changes in the early 00s, but they were 2-sided.
The only one that really hurt defenses was removing the hand check (which was a function of the man-only defenses and one-one-one offenses of the time).
The NBA strengthened defenses by allowing partial zones and eliminating 20% of the time an offense had to cross halfcourt.
But these rule changes were put in place starting with the 2001–2002 season. What rule change took place in the mid-2010s? THAT is when we started seeing offensive efficiency skyrocket. If the "rule change" argument was stronger, you'd have seen it long before 15-ish years had passed, right?
quote:
Rules have lead to 7'0 guys practicing 3s more than post moves not skill.
Strategy and intelligence did this; not rule changes.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:01 am to SlowFlowPro
Wrong as usual. There was no 3 point line so spacing guys way out was of zero value prior to that. The spacing only began to take advantage of the new 3 point line so it’s the exact inverse of what you’re saying.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:02 am to Madking
quote:
if the theory that players are just more advanced were true there would be equally advanced defensive players who could stop offense
This is a presumption you're trying to pass off as logic.
This would only work in an open system without rigidity provided by rules (including things like a limited size of the court).
This is where efficiency and strategy come into play. Teams finally realized how dumb they were in the past and started taking advantages of the inherent issues provided by the very structure of the game, primarily the 3 point shot, picks, and passing.
You presume that there should be a similar defensive efficiency, but that's why it's a presumption and not logic. Defenses are constrained by the size of the court, 3 point shot, picks, and being reactive to things like movement and passing. There is no magic pill they can take to make up for these disadvantages.
The NBA will have to severely alter the structure of the game, doing things like condensing the court, pushing back the 3, eliminating 3 in certain areas (like the corner), making close-range shots worth 1 point, and punishing picks harder. Maybe implement a limit on passes per possession. Stuff like that would have to be implemented to give the defensive improvement you're presuming.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:05 am to Madking
quote:
There was no 3 point line so spacing guys way out was of zero value prior to that.
Who is talking about 1979 and the 80s?
quote:
The spacing only began to take advantage of the new 3 point line
In the 80s?
Are you taking about 95-97 when they moved it up? In the 98 season, they moved it back to its original position (where it remains today).
You think the late 90s/early 00s NBA took advantage of the 3 point shot?
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:06 am to SlowFlowPro
Not only are you wrong but you’re doing exactly what you’re claiming I am.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:06 am to Madking
quote:
Not only are you wrong but you’re doing exactly what you’re claiming I am.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:06 am to SlowFlowPro
He was, he specifically mentioned the 70s
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:09 am to SlowFlowPro
The amount of traveling they get away with is ridiculous
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:11 am to Madking
quote:
He was, he specifically mentioned the 70s
David Robinson played in the 70s?
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:12 am to KingofthePoint
quote:
The amount of traveling they get away with is ridiculous
It's about as much as they have since the 70s. I think possibly the 60s, but my knowledge of NBA history stops in the 70s with the ABA-NBA merger
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:22 am to SlowFlowPro
Also not true, players were never allowed to take 2 or 3 steps backwards after stopping their dribble the way they are today.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:24 am to cubsfan5150
It does make it more difficult that people have learned to shoot 3s and spacing is a whole lot easier on offense.
But I will agree that there are some players who look entirely disinterested on the defensive side of the ball. Current AAU basketball is very very bad.
But I will agree that there are some players who look entirely disinterested on the defensive side of the ball. Current AAU basketball is very very bad.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:34 am to Madking
The NBA back then, had absolutely nobody with the size and athleticism of Lebron James...maybe Karl Malone...and he was a post player. Go look at Michael Jordan and who guarded him in the NBA playoffs...Dan Majerle? Jeff Hornacek? Detlef Schrimpf? Craig Ehlo???? Old arse Clyde Drexler!!! Old arse James Worthy!!! Now look at who Lebron had to go up against. The defending champions Pistons, dynasty Spurs and Warriors!! Jordan didn't face a team even close to those teams. That is not debatable.
Lebron James would have scored 60+ on all of those players...LeBron is the greatest basketball player the world has ever seen. The FACT that Lebron is still dominating the league at 39 years old!! GOAT!!
Lebron James would have scored 60+ on all of those players...LeBron is the greatest basketball player the world has ever seen. The FACT that Lebron is still dominating the league at 39 years old!! GOAT!!
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:39 am to Buckeye Backer
I'll just say this again. Lebron really doesn't belong in this conversation. His apex was right at the beginning of this neo-modern era. His title against the Warriors (when he was exiting his prime at best) was the last stand against the modern NBA.
When everyone started copying the Warriors, this era began. That was outside of Lebron's prime and he's an old man these days. The portion of his career that gives him an argument in the GOAT discussion occurred prior to this era.
When everyone started copying the Warriors, this era began. That was outside of Lebron's prime and he's an old man these days. The portion of his career that gives him an argument in the GOAT discussion occurred prior to this era.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:59 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Are you taking about 95-97 when they moved it up? In the 98 season, they moved it back to its original position (where it remains today).
What I heard was they moved it back because too many bad shooters were taking 3s
Posted on 1/23/24 at 9:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's about as much as they have since the 70s.
Absolutely not
Posted on 1/23/24 at 9:36 am to chalmetteowl
quote:
What I heard was they moved it back because too many bad shooters were taking 3s
I found a funny quote that fits perfectly into the modern discussion, from the time of inception of the 3 pointer:
quote:
"You have to tell your players to remember who the shooters are, and when those guys are 25 feet from the basket, get in their jocks and guard them," former ABA and NBA coach Hubie Brown said in Loose Balls. "Don't give them the 25-footer, which is something players had been conditioned to do all their lives. And as a coach, if you have a shooter with range, you have to give him the freedom to take the 25-footer, which is a philosophy that goes against what you learned as a young coach--namely, pound the ball inside."
Hubie Brown, one of the GOAT basketball minds. The issues he references from the 60s basically applied in the NBA until about 2017.
Now, the revolution in developing skill in big men did predate that a bit, both from the introduction of skilled Euro bigs to the demolishing of Ben Wallace in the 2002 FIBA World Championshps, when the NBA learned that the plodding, unskilled bigs had no place in a developing game. The final step in this was the Roy Hibbert saga,
Why the NBA abandoned Roy Hibbert
quote:
Yet five years later, Hibbert, one of the best rim protectors in basketball, is out of the league.
How does that happen? How does a former All-Star and recent defensive player of the year runner-up — who’s 31, presumably still physically healthy and still has an elite skill that is always in demand at this level — find himself nudged out of the NBA in such quick fashion?
The league learned new tricks, and Hibbert didn’t.
“It’s surprising to me. I’ve talked to Roy about this, but he could still be playing in the league right now,” said Frank Vogel, Hibbert’s former coach in Indiana, who was recently let go by the Magic. “But the league has adapted, both big picture and in terms of what he was doing for us in Indiana. There’s been a severe evolution in how the league plays, and he’s been a victim of it.”
quote:
Yet as Hibbert continued to protect the rim well, that skill by itself became less valuable in a changing NBA. Take, for example, the Pacers’ 2014 playoff series against No. 8 seed Atlanta, in which the Hawks surprisingly took top-seeded Indiana to seven games.
Atlanta, which would go on to win 60 games the following season, exposed the Pacers’ defensive scheme (and thus Hibbert’s shortcomings) by playing lineups in which all five players could shoot from the perimeter. Much like a dog who’s bound by the constraints of an electric fence, Hibbert opts to stay tethered beneath the free-throw line on defense when he can, both so he can shut down shots at the rim and because his mobility isn’t good enough to defend in open space. The Hawks nearly stole a series because of it.
Hibbert going from defensive stud to unplayable in one offseason was the start of the current era of the NBA.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 10:30 am to SelaTiger
quote:
That’s why nobody should ever compare Lebron to MJ. MJ had to go up against teams like the Pistons while Lebron goes up against his soft booty buddies.
Illegal defense was a thing.
Lebron would have decimated people if they were forced to only play 1v1 against him.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:12 pm to dcrews
quote:
Illegal defense was a thing.
Lebron would have decimated people if they were forced to only play 1v1 against him.
teams have gotten very good at forcing switches in the modern game. with the old illegal defense rules those switches would result in even higher scoring efficiency when they get the switch the want.
This post was edited on 1/23/24 at 12:16 pm
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