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re: Joe Frazier vs Mike Tyson (Who would win?)

Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:34 pm to
Posted by Roaad
White Privilege Broker
Member since Aug 2006
76505 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:34 pm to
quote:

hey are talking about how great of a fighter he was. When they rate Ali, they're not talking about the Ali who fought Holmes and Berbick, are they?
They look at careers.

When they talk Tyson, they aren't just looking at that one point in time.

quote:

What is your definition of a great fighter?
Quality wins.

Record

Belts

quote:

But you're going to have to face the fact that just about everybody with an informed opinion disagrees strongly with you.
Wow. . .arrogant, much?

Posted by PortCityTiger24
Member since Dec 2006
87455 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:34 pm to
quote:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!


Watch his early fights and you will see what I'm talking about. He wasn't in there throwing haymakers. His knockouts were generally crisp, calculated punches that were lightning quick. He had terrific footwork and great head movement. Go watch a few of his fights, PJ. I know you pretty much talk out of your arse, but we're talking boxing here, not cheap South Korean cars!!
Posted by dukke v
PLUTO
Member since Jul 2006
203031 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:34 pm to
quote:

Ali was not the same fighter as Tyson.


You are right!! ALI was MUCH better.


quote:

Tyson was a brawler akin to Frazier. . .but faster and meaner.





Wow You just don't get this do ya??? I have seen all the so called important fights and IMO Joe would beat the hell out of Tyson because he can GO 15[ 12 ] Rounds. Tyson COULD NOT.
Posted by Circle the Wagons
Member since Mar 2010
467 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:36 pm to
quote:

Was the type of boxer that Tyson made his money against.


Ali? Who did Tyson fight that was of Ali's type?

quote:

In his Prime, Tyson ends Lewis' career.


I'm sure you don't mean literally? You don't think that Mike would have had problems being on the end of Lewis' jab? Prime Lewis was better than any version of fighter Tyson ever beat. Lewis presents virtually all the match-up problems that Tyson would have to worry about. The only problem is Lewis' chin.

Vitali Klitschko would present all the problems of Lewis but with a chin to go with it.
Posted by PortCityTiger24
Member since Dec 2006
87455 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:37 pm to
quote:

Vitali Klitschko would present all the problems of Lewis but with a chin to go with it.


He was beating the hell out of Lewis before that fight was stopped
Posted by dukke v
PLUTO
Member since Jul 2006
203031 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:38 pm to
quote:

He had terrific footwork and great head movement.


So did JOE!!!!


quote:

Go watch a few of his fights, PJ.


I have watched alot of them, AND IMO JOE would KICK HIS arse!!!!!!!! YOU need to watch some Frazier. NOW GO!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Jamohn
Das Boot
Member since Mar 2009
13544 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:41 pm to
quote:

Wow. . .arrogant, much?
For example. Ring Magazine's all-time heavyweight rankings have Liston around 7 (working from memory b/c posting from my phone) Tyson is ranked somewhere in the neighborhood of 15. Tyson had a longer reign at the top and more quality wins than Liston. Why do you think Liston would be ranked higher?

Frazier is in the top 10 if memory serves me correctly.
Posted by tidalmouse
Whatsamotta U.
Member since Jan 2009
30706 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:43 pm to
Ali beat Joe getting in his head.No way Tyson plays mind games.Just two warriors and Joe would die before he let Tyson win.
Posted by Circle the Wagons
Member since Mar 2010
467 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 7:43 pm to
quote:

He was beating the hell out of Lewis before that fight was stopped



Yeah, tough ending to that one. But you could drive a truck through that cut. Lennox was faded at that point in his career, but it would have been nice to see a rematch.
Posted by Circle the Wagons
Member since Mar 2010
467 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 8:07 pm to
quote:

People saying Spinks was not legit are fricking retarded


Well, maybe so. But, what he definitely was...a 31 year old who started at light heavyweight.

He had a very good career, but beating him isn't evidence that Tyson would beat a great heavyweight.

He just doesn't factor into the discussion.
Posted by TTownTiger
Austin
Member since Oct 2007
5301 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 8:18 pm to
Here you go, jamohn.

Top 20 HWs of all time from ring magazine:
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Johnson
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Ezzard Charles
12. James J. Jeffries
13. Jersey Joe Walcott
14. Mike Tyson
15. Gene Tunney
16. Harry Wills
17. Sam Langford
18. John L. Sullivan
19. Max Schmeling
20. Max Baer

Edit: FWIW, I think Holyfield is the most overrated HW in history, IMO. We'll save that for another thread, though
This post was edited on 2/15/11 at 8:22 pm
Posted by Marciano1
Marksville, LA
Member since Jun 2009
18436 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 8:25 pm to
Frazier all day over Tyson. Mike would have had lots of trouble with the greats of the past (Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Louis, etc).
Posted by Roaad
White Privilege Broker
Member since Aug 2006
76505 posts
Posted on 2/15/11 at 10:39 pm to
Here is what Ali thought.

While I still think Tyson would knock Ali out. . .and I don't think Foreman could land enough on him before Tyson got inside. . .

. . .it is still classic Ali.

quote:

It's from the book, "The Lost Legacy of Muhammad Ali" by Tom Hauser.




quote:

This was when he had parkinsons. Here is the piece he wrote, in it's entirety, including the authors note.


"This Is the piece (referenced on page 8(Above)that I wrote for Ali prior to our meeting in October 1988. Muhammad had respect for Mike Tyson as a fighter, but considered him beatable. It was his view that Iron Mike would have knocked out Joe Frazier, but George Foreman would K.O. him. Even when Tyson was undefeated, Ali told me. "Tyson is predictable, the way he moves his head. He has fast hands, but he's slow on his feet and my hands were faster then his. The way to beat Tyson is with a fast jab, a hard right hand; and if he hits you, you have to be able to take a punch."
Still, many commentators saw things differently. And I sensed that Muhammad was a bit miffed by the view that Iron Mike would have beaten him. Thus, I wasn't surprised when my telephone rang on the night of February 11, 1990, moments after James "Buster" Douglas dethroned Mike Tyson in Tokyo. "What do you think people will say now when asked who's better, Mike Tyson or me?" Muhammad asked rhetorically. "Buster Douglas saved me the trouble of coming back and whupping Mike Tyson myself."


Now, the actual piece.


People are weeping and crying all the time these days, because Mike Tyson is heavyweight champion of the world. He's a bully and no one can beat him. But that don't mean nuthin'. They said Sonny Liston was unbeatable, and I beat him. They said George Foreman was unbeatable and I beat him. They say Tyson is unbeatable, but I'm coming back. I got a time machine, and I'm coming back to whup Mike Tyson.
Mike Tyson is to ugly to be champion. He's got gold teeth. He's got bald spots all over his head. I called Joe Frazier "The Gorilla", but next to Tyson, Frazier was a beautifull woman. Everyone I fought, I had names for, Sonny Liston was "The Bear". George Chuvalo was "The Washer Woman" Floyd Patterson was "The Rabbit". George Foreman was "The Mummy." Mike Tyson is ugly; ugly like King Kong, so I'm calling him "Kong".
And Tyson Is nuthin'. He never fought no one. He fought Larry Holmes when Holmes was an old man, Trevor Berbick when Berbick was a crazy old man, he fought Tyrell Biggs and Tyrell was an amateur. Micheal Spinks was a light heavyweight. Tony Tubbs, he was an embarassment. Bonecrusher Smith, he lost the first nine rounds against Frank Bruno. Tyson never fought Sonny Liston, never fought Joe Frazier, he never fought George Foreman like I did. Fighting all of them in their prime.
So I'm coming back to whup Mike Tyson. It's the biggest fight in the history of time. Bigger then David and Goliath; bigger then Napolean against England and Russia. Too big for home television. Too big for closed circuit,. They're putting the fight on special 3-D closed circuit, with cameras and lenses like you ain't never seen before.
And the whole world is holding it's breath. Everyone's rooting for me, but they're saying , Muhammad Ali, he's just a man and now he's fighting Kong. They're saying Mike Tyson is to strong, too mean, he hit's too hard.
Here's how it goes.
Round One:It'll be all over in one; that's what they're saying. And Tyson comes out for the kill, Ali's dancing, jabbing. Pop-pop-pop-pop. Tyson swings---WHOOSH---hit's nuthin' but air.
Pop-pop-pop-pop.
WHOOSH. Tyson hit's air.
Pop-pop-pop-pop. At the end of the round the Television people are adding up their stats and they can't believe it. Muhammad Ali: 107 Jabs, 92 landed. Mike Tyson: 40 punches and he didn't land one.
Round Two:It's just like round one.
Pop-pop-pop-pop.
WHOOSH.
Pop-pop-pop-pop.
WHOOSH.
Ali is pretty. The crowds going wild. ALI! ALI!
Tyson lands a punch but it didn't do no harm.
Round Three:Ali's landing right hands. It's early in the fight, and already Tysons left eye is starting to close. Women and children are holding their breath. Ali looks good. He's better then good. Muhammad Ali is the greatest, but there's nine more rounds to go, and Tyson is getting dirty now. He's butting and thumbing, throwing elbows and hitting low.
Round Four:Pop-pop-pop-pop. Ali is still dancing. Floats like a butterfly, but he sting's like a bee. Pop-pop-pop-pop. Tyson is bleeding; the left eye. He's cut and the blood is flowing down. The experts are shaking their heads. Muhammad Ali is making Tyson look like a child.
Round Five:Tyson is taking a bad whuppin'. The crowds going wild. ALI! ALI! ALI! Tysons getting tired. Ali's talking to him, asking "Who's the greatest?" Tyson won't answer so Ali hit's him four-five-six right hands.
Round Six:It's the Ali shuffle, two billion people round the world cheerin and huggin, weeping with joy. It's the real Ali. Not the Ali who lost to Larry Holmes; not the Ali you thought was old. This is Muhammad Ali, who destroyed Zora Folley; who done in Cleveland Williams. ALI! ALI!
Round Seven:Tysons gold teeth got knocked out into the crowd, you can see his mother in law run after them. The crowds in a state of histomania, Ali's punching so fast now, no one can hear the pops. It's P-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p. Ali winds up for a bolo punch, the crowd is praying. They're pleading, don't take no chances; don't get careless with Tyson. But Ali's still winding up for the Bolo, Tyson's moving closer. Tyson is getting ready, he's gunna kill Ali. The crowd holds it's breath, Tyson leaps with a left hook. But Muhammad Ali throws a right hand, It's faster then a speeding bullet, faster then the punch that knocked down Sonny Liston. The eye can't see it, except with a super slow-mo replay camera.
TYSON IS DOWN!
Tyson get's up at seven.
Ding! There's the bell.
Now Tyson is mad, he's embarassed. He's been humiliated. He's coming out for the next round determined to put Ali down.
Round Eight: Tyson charges out of the corner, throwing punches like wild, He's spitting blood. There's fire in his eyes. He's doing everything he can. And... OH NO! Ali is tired. Ali has stopped dancing. After seven rounds with Kong, Ali's legs are gone. Ali's moving back. Tyson comes in for the Kill. Ali is in the corner.; he's in trouble. Tyson is ugly, He's a monster that has to be fed, and Muhammad Ali is the monsters meal.
Tyson with a left. Tyson with a right. The whole world is covering it's eyes.
Wait a minute ! ! !
IT'S THE ROPE-A-DOPE ! ! !
Muhammad Ali tricked the montser, and now Ali is coming back strong.
Ali with a left. Ali with a right. It's Muhammad Ali, the greatest fighter of all time.
AND TYSON IS DOWN!
The count is one, two...
Tysons eyes are closed!
Three, four...
He's not moving!
Five. Six..
We have a brand new champion.
Seven.. Eight..
This is the greatest moment of all time!
Nine, Ten!!!
IT'S ALL OVER! IT'S ALL OVER! THE TYRANT IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE TRUE KING!


I dunno about anyone else, but I had rocky going through my head reading that.

As for my personal opinion?

Muhammad could beat Tyson even with the parkinsons.



LINK
This post was edited on 2/15/11 at 10:41 pm
Posted by Nissanmaxima
Member since Feb 2006
14928 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 8:56 am to
quote:

I wouldn't bet against Tyson in his prime against anyone.



This right here. Sorry but Tyson in his prime(19ish) was the best I have ever seen and on his way to becoming the best ever if not for the head case he became and with the people he surrounded himself with which done him in. I don't care how good of a chin you had, you could not take the power of the punch that he threw, in his prime. Foreman may have been the only other that threw a comparable power punch. I know, I know, you say, well Ali took Foreman's best, Foreman never got a great shot on Ali, then again, maybe Tyson would not have either. Boy, would be fun to watch them all in there prime in a fight off.
Posted by TigerFanNKaty
texas
Member since Sep 2008
10234 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 9:22 am to
Ali and I am old enough to have seen the Ali vs. Foreman fight by delayed broadcast on ABC wide world of sports. Mike Tyson would not have beaten Ali or Foreman pre Ali. After Ali beat Foreman he lost it and was never the same fighter. Ali was never the same after the last Frazier fight. I think Tyson could have beaten Frazier once but he would have had to fight him again and then who knows. It's fun to specualate, but to there is only one greatest and his name is Ali. There has never been a heavyweight who could move like him and hit with speed and power the way Ali could.
Posted by ROUSTER
Member since Sep 2003
6886 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 12:00 pm to
I can remember when Tyson was a young up and comer. I would go visit my Great Uncle who was a welterweight contender back around Sugar Ray Robinson's time.
Anyway, we sat on his boat and watched Tyson destroy some guy. I asked my Uncle what he thought of Tyson. He said if he doesn't let the "game" get to him, he could be one of the best ever. Mentioned that Tyson was just such a skilled animal. His words. But, eventually the money would probably change him. Which it did.

I think a prime Tyson probably beats Frazier in an absolute WAR.
Ali would have done to Tyson, what he did to Liston, Foreman, and even Frazier.
I think a young Foreman would have done to Tyson what he did to Frazier.
Tyson was a tough SOB. Just go look at the beating Douglas put on him. Tyson was out of shape and Buster was a big dude just teeing off on him. After Cus died, Tyson simply didn't have any mental fortitude.


What's always so hard to figure out with these scenerio's is that they were in different eras. Back in Fraziers time, the only way to make good money was to fight other great fighters. So they had to stay hungry. For Tyson, he got paid for beating tomato cans early on. So had Tyson fought back then, maybe he would have been different. Had Frazier or Ali fought now, maybe they would have been different as well.
Posted by DelU249
Austria
Member since Dec 2010
77625 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 12:05 pm to
it's hard to feel bad for professional athletes, but i've always felt pity for tyson...background/psyche and all
Posted by WelcomeToDeathValley
1st & 1st
Member since Aug 2006
16947 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 12:18 pm to
edit: after reading the thread....


what Jamohn said
This post was edited on 2/16/11 at 12:30 pm
Posted by TigerFanNKaty
texas
Member since Sep 2008
10234 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 12:19 pm to
I felt bad for him also, Robin Givens and the rest of the sharks around brought the man down and he did not know how to overcome that.
This post was edited on 2/16/11 at 3:20 pm
Posted by bomber77
Member since Aug 2008
14783 posts
Posted on 2/16/11 at 12:35 pm to
quote:

Ali would have done to Tyson, what he did to Liston, Foreman, and even Frazier.


Ali beat Liston and Foreman with his plan. Got into their heads. Foreman should have killed Ali.

Frazier was a different story. People forget sometimes that it was 1-1 in their primes. The third and final fight was one of historys greatist. Both men beat each other to death. That fight could have gone either way. Ali never had a great strategy for Joe. They both just laid it on the line.

No way a fight today like Ali-Frazier III would be allowed to go the distance. The greatist fight Ive ever seen.
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