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IYO, do Curt Schilling & Kevin Brown belong in the Hall Of Fame?
Posted on 4/14/19 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 4/14/19 at 3:30 pm
I think Schilling & Brown belong in the HOF, and there’s no question about it. I think two things are working against them are... 1) They pitched during an era with some all time greats, and were overshadowed. Pedro, Maddux, Clemens, Randy Johnson & Glavine. 2) They’re not well liked.
SCHILLING:
80.6 bWAR(26th All Time)
79.6 fWAR(20th All Time)
103.7 pWARP(8th All Time)~Baseball Prospectus
127 ERA+(49th All Time)
3116 Ks
3.46 ERA
3.23 FIP
BROWN:
68.4 bWAR(33rd All Time)
76.5 fWAR(24th All Time)
80.2 pWARP(17th All Time)
127 ERA+(49th All Time)
2397 Ks
3.28 ERA
3.33 FIP
I also like using Wins Above Average(WAA) when evaluating careers, because it shows the value of players compared to the average MLB player, not a replacement. WAR rewards stat compilers. Schilling’s career WAA is 54(8th All Time), and Brown’s is 40.3(26th All Time).
Currently, there are 50 pitchers in the HOF with a lower career WAR than Schilling, and 45 pitchers in the HOF with a lower career WAR than Brown.
With respect to guys like Smoltz, Halladay, Jack Morris & Catfish Hunter, if they belong in the HOF, so do Schilling & Brown, at least IMO.
SCHILLING:
80.6 bWAR(26th All Time)
79.6 fWAR(20th All Time)
103.7 pWARP(8th All Time)~Baseball Prospectus
127 ERA+(49th All Time)
3116 Ks
3.46 ERA
3.23 FIP
BROWN:
68.4 bWAR(33rd All Time)
76.5 fWAR(24th All Time)
80.2 pWARP(17th All Time)
127 ERA+(49th All Time)
2397 Ks
3.28 ERA
3.33 FIP
I also like using Wins Above Average(WAA) when evaluating careers, because it shows the value of players compared to the average MLB player, not a replacement. WAR rewards stat compilers. Schilling’s career WAA is 54(8th All Time), and Brown’s is 40.3(26th All Time).
Currently, there are 50 pitchers in the HOF with a lower career WAR than Schilling, and 45 pitchers in the HOF with a lower career WAR than Brown.
With respect to guys like Smoltz, Halladay, Jack Morris & Catfish Hunter, if they belong in the HOF, so do Schilling & Brown, at least IMO.
11
Posted on 4/14/19 at 3:34 pm to ZZTIGERS
quote:borderline but in
Curt Schilling
quote:just misses out on both career and peak WAR. i want to look at his JAWS again but i think it was just short. probably on the outside looking in, imo
Kevin Brown
the threshold for starters is crazy high
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:07 pm to ZZTIGERS
Schilling should be in
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:10 pm to Chalkywhite84
quote:
Schilling should be in
I think he would except for his months long tirade and attempted suits against some new England state he wanted to bail his company out.
He came off entitled and clueless.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:31 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
the threshold for starters is crazy high
As it should be, which doesn’t line up with some HOFers. Catfish Hunter & Jack Morris are no where that threshold. Morris’ career ERA+ is only 105, a tad above average.
Brown basically had the same career as Halladay. Their numbers are eerily similar, with Brown having the slight edge. While I'm on topic, I wanna highlight that Brown’s ‘98 season is the most under appreciated season for a pitcher(maybe Gooden’s ‘85 season)...ever. It was one of the GOAT seasons, but gets lost in the discussion because of Pedro’s ‘99 & 2000 seasons, Maddux’s ‘94 & ‘95 seasons etc...
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:31 pm to ZZTIGERS
Schilling was a better pitcher than Smoltz and should have been in a long time ago. Brown's HOF candidacy is stronger than people think but I would lean towards no with him.
This post was edited on 4/14/19 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:36 pm to ZZTIGERS
Schilling should be in
With his bloody sock for sure
With his bloody sock for sure
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:37 pm to Bench McElroy
quote:
Schilling was a better pitcher than Smoltz
But Schillinh should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. Post season matters, unfair as it may be.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:51 pm to ZZTIGERS
quote:
Brown basically had the same career as Halladay. Their numbers are eerily similar, with Brown having the slight edge. While I'm on topic, I wanna highlight that Brown’s ‘98 season is the most under appreciated season for a pitcher(maybe Gooden’s ‘85 season)...ever. It was one of the GOAT seasons, but gets lost in the discussion because of Pedro’s ‘99 & 2000 seasons, Maddux’s ‘94 & ‘95 seasons etc...
Yeah, I think Halladay benefited tremendously from being in a fairly weak era for starting pitchers. The second best pitcher during Halladay's time was Johan Santana who is nowhere near a HOF caliber pitcher. Meanwhile, Brown pitched during the same time as Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, Big Unit, Glavine, Smoltz, and Schilling among others. It's easy to get lost in a shuffle during a time with so many great starting pitchers.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 4:56 pm to ZZTIGERS
Schilling absolutely should be in. Apparently being a Trump supporter is worse than beating your wife up like Kirby Puckett though.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 7:12 pm to ZZTIGERS
Schilling in for sure. Great regular season numbers and dominant postseason
Brown, frick no. Borderline as it is, using juice pushes him to hard no.
Brown, frick no. Borderline as it is, using juice pushes him to hard no.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 7:36 pm to Korin
quote:
being a Trump supporter is worse than beating your wife up like Kirby Puckett though.
Nah.
He was being passed over long before Trump.
This post was edited on 4/14/19 at 7:37 pm
Posted on 4/14/19 at 9:38 pm to Korin
quote:
. Apparently being a Trump supporter is worse than beating your wife up like Kirby Puckett though.
It’s baseball. That actually helps.
Posted on 4/14/19 at 10:18 pm to ZZTIGERS
quote:
IYO, do Curt Schilling & Kevin Brown belong in the Hall Of Fame?
Considering I don't know who Kevin Brown is, he's not a HOFer. For Schilling, considering he delivered the archetypal tough guy pitching performance to propel the Sox to their first WS win in almost a century AGAINST THE YANKEES and achieved much fame, of course he belongs in the HOF, dude was great.
Posted on 4/15/19 at 7:50 am to CelticDog
quote:
He came off entitled and clueless.
So when do we remove all the “entitled and clueless” players that are already in the HoF (of which there are many)?
Posted on 4/15/19 at 8:43 am to ZZTIGERS
It's not the Hall of Good People I'd Want my Daughter to Date. Induction should be solely based on performance on the field. Schilling is definitely deserving.
Kevin Brown deserves more discussion than he gets, but I'm more on the fence with him.
Kevin Brown deserves more discussion than he gets, but I'm more on the fence with him.
Posted on 4/15/19 at 8:52 am to ZZTIGERS
quote:
IYO, do Curt Schilling & Kevin Brown belong in the Hall Of Fame?
Schilling Yes..... Brown No
The Hall of Fame should not always be about metrics. Schilling went to TWO franchises and won World Series for them.
I'm an avid Yankees fan and hate the mofo. But I still support his election to the Hall.
There is no metric for "Clutch" and Schilling had a knack for being huge when his team needed it.
This post was edited on 4/15/19 at 8:53 am
Posted on 4/15/19 at 12:05 pm to DallasTiger45
quote:
Kevin Brown deserves more discussion than he gets, but I'm more on the fence with him.
I’m actually very surprised that many in this thread are actually giving thought to Brown’s candidacy, instead of just saying hell no. I’ll admit, most of his argument comes from...“If you’re gonna let Player X in, then Brown deserves in”. He is borderline on Hall of Very Good and HOF. His peak from ‘96-‘01 during the steroid era was great. Yes, I know he was implicated himself, but still impressive nonetheless.
Posted on 4/15/19 at 12:12 pm to ZZTIGERS
Yea, I wouldn't put Kevin Brown in my hall of fame but it would be hard to argue with his inclusion due to some of the other guys who have gotten in.
Posted on 4/15/19 at 12:33 pm to ZZTIGERS
Morris ERA is high, but he threw a 175 complete games. That's a 130 more than Pedro Martinez.
If Morris was only throwing 5-6 innings a start, he ERA would have been lower.
If Morris was only throwing 5-6 innings a start, he ERA would have been lower.
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