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Message
re: Is Joey Votto a Hall of Famer?
Posted on 1/20/23 at 11:56 am to ned nederlander
Posted on 1/20/23 at 11:56 am to ned nederlander
quote:
I will say this - if Edgar Martinez is a HOF than Votto is a HOF. Votto is basically Edgar Martinez at the plate plus good defense at 1B.
There is that case to be made (FWIW, I don't think DH's should be in the Hall. ALTHOUGH, Edgar made his living being mega-CLUTCH.)
But then again -- we are seeing a decline in expectations and criteria for what a "Hall of Famer" is.
0
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:03 pm to Liberator
quote:
A so-so .265 for a guy who is a career .300 hitter. (We expect HoF'ers to exceed the average in Clutch Stats, right?)
quote:
Btw, I'd take Derek Jeter or Bernie Williams easily in a "clutch" situation over either Mike Trout or Votto. It
Jeter hit .310 for his career, he hit .283 in late and close games, 27 points below his average
votto hit .297 for his career, he hit .269 in late and close games, 28 points below his average
quote:
I am also not a big fan of the uber-Advanced stats like tOPS
its not an uber-advanced stat, it literally is just a percentage of your normal ops for that situation.
This post was edited on 1/20/23 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:05 pm to barry
quote:
with RISP 22.2%
overall career 15.7%
41.4% increase in walks with RISP
Like i posted on the first page, lots of great hitters have increased walk rates with RISP because the pitchers aren't morons.
Ted Williams BB%
with RISP 27.1%
career avg. 20.6%
34.4% increase in walks with RISP
Almost the same delta
How about the much noted Miggy in this thread who "aint walking with RISP"
Miguel Cabrera BB%
with RISP 14.9%
career 10.7%
39.3% increase in walks with RISP
SO miggy and Votto increased their walk rate by almost identical amounts with RISP.
Analyze Bonds like this. I bet his numbers are ridiculous.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:10 pm to barry
Fair enough on some metric similarities.
Stats (like "CLUTCH") are material metrics that obviously matter -- but they don't include Intangible Values that count and attibute to winning -- like:
Clubhouse Vibe Value
Leadership Value (Clutch / Morale)
Force Factor
Fear Factor
(Miggy vs Votto)
Miggy probably wins hands down on those 4 intangibles. The lack of attention and unacknowledged value to the intangables of the game bother me.
Glad Mike Trout was brught up; He'd lag in some of the intangibles (besides also lagging in "Clutch") -- IF sports observers are honest.
Comparisons to Mickey Mantle are ridiculous.
Stats (like "CLUTCH") are material metrics that obviously matter -- but they don't include Intangible Values that count and attibute to winning -- like:
Clubhouse Vibe Value
Leadership Value (Clutch / Morale)
Force Factor
Fear Factor
(Miggy vs Votto)
Miggy probably wins hands down on those 4 intangibles. The lack of attention and unacknowledged value to the intangables of the game bother me.
Glad Mike Trout was brught up; He'd lag in some of the intangibles (besides also lagging in "Clutch") -- IF sports observers are honest.
Comparisons to Mickey Mantle are ridiculous.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:11 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:
Analyze Bonds like this. I bet his numbers are ridiculous.
Bonds BB%
with RISP 31.9%
career avg 20.3%
57.1% increase in walks with RISP
Also 57% of his walks with RISP were intentional.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:12 pm to Liberator
quote:
Stats (like "CLUTCH") are material metrics that obviously matter -- but they don't include Intangible Values that count and attibute to winning -- like:
Clubhouse Vibe Value
Leadership Value (Clutch / Morale)
Force Factor
Fear Factor
OK, now you are just fricking with me
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:12 pm to Liberator
quote:
PLUS...Votto has been a career head case and kid of a jerk
i mean of all things, what in the frick is this garbage?
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:15 pm to Liberator
quote:
Clubhouse Vibe Value
Leadership Value (Clutch / Morale)
Force Factor
Fear Factor
(Miggy vs Votto)
Miggy probably wins hands down on those 4 intangibles
oh ok nevermind, you're just a fricking idiot
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:17 pm to barry
quote:
Jeter hit .310 for his career, he hit .283 in late and close games, 27 points below his average
votto hit .297 for his career, he hit .269 in late and close games, 28 points below his average
Jeter still appreciably better than Votto (NOT including the Playoffs.) Votto: very pedestrian .269.
Votto: 2 Outs, RISP: .265. (@.300 career)
Jeter: 2 Outs, RISP: .298 (@.310 career)
And remember -- Votto = The Big Guy
Jeter = Leadoff hitter
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:18 pm to barry
quote:
Also 57% of his walks with RISP were intentional.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:20 pm to rockchlkjayhku11
Votto a ZERO factor in the clubhouse. Leadership. "Fear" Factor. Plus a #3 guy who tries to milk walks with RISP? When the game is on the line??
It is what it is (that you, Joey?)
It is what it is (that you, Joey?)
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:23 pm to Liberator
quote:
Jeter = Leadoff hitter
Jeter batted in the 2-hole more than leadoff.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:26 pm to barry
quote:
OK, now you are just fricking with me
quote:
(Clubhouse Vibe Value
Leadership Value (Clutch / Morale)
Force Factor
Fear Factor)
Come on -- how was (and by whom) Joey Votto considered a "leader"?? In what respect? Pitchers ought to been crapping their pants coming near the plate -- but they weren't. They knew he was laying off pitches that were a couple inches off the plate, preferring BBs. Sorry man. Joey (ONE RIBBY, playoffs time) Votto was missing intangibles. He's is obviously something else to you. That's ok. I'm just one person who's watch a LOT of MLB.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:28 pm to Tornado Alley
Just in general, with RISP, Bonds was intentionally walked 1 in 10 plate appearences.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:29 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:
Jeter batted in the 2-hole more than leadoff.
True overall....eventually he batted from the 2-hole.
But during the early years he was slotted at lead off (4649) vs 2-hole (6753)
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:32 pm to Liberator
quote:
Pitchers ought to been crapping their pants coming near the plate -- but they weren't. They knew he was laying off pitches that were a couple inches off the plate, preferring BBs.
So the fact that he was walked with RISP at the 5th highest rate in MLB history is because pitchers WERE'NT scared of him?
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:36 pm to barry
quote:
Just in general, with RISP, Bonds was intentionally walked 1 in 10 plate appearences.
Good lord.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:49 pm to barry
quote:
barry
Thank you for your service. As a fellow Reds fan, Joey Damn Votto is the only good thing about this stupid franchise.
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:54 pm to barry
quote:
Just in general, with RISP, Bonds was intentionally walked 1 in 10 plate appearences.
And Bonds isn't in the HOF, so why should Votto be?
Posted on 1/20/23 at 12:59 pm to LSUBoo
quote:and he never will
And Bonds isn't in the HOF
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