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1
Posted on 12/18/12 at 7:10 pm to TigerBait2008
quote:
And how many wins did those teams have last year? 2? Nope.
and that also had UNBELIEVABLY SHITTY qb play. The colts were in a lot of tight games last year where even average qb play would have probably given them 5-6 wins. Plus this argument basically says its all on luck. There is an entirely new coaching staff, defensive scheme, etc that warrants some credit for the turnaround.
This post was edited on 12/18/12 at 7:11 pm
Posted on 12/18/12 at 8:44 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
You don't know what arguably means, huh?
You don't know what ridiculous means, huh? It's ridiculous to say there's an argument that Luck is the most valuable player to his team.
quote:
No. You suck at following along. Im saying it's easy to have nice passing numbers when your sample size is so small. It doesn't mean you are a great QB. Throw the ball 500+ times a year like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers and then come hang your hat on passer rating and completion percentage.
So it's impossible to be an elite QB without being in a pass-happy offense? Is that what you're saying? Also, wouldn't the dramatic increase in attempts and given that your QB is (in theory) the superior QB due to his reliance on the pass lead to higher TDs?
quote:
You want to knock Luck's "bad" numbers, which are a result of having to throw the ball a ton, but in the same breath want to praise Griffin's, who is 26th in the NFL in pass attempts? Well no shite, he has 4 INT. No shite, he has a high completion %. No shite, his passer rating is through the roof. He is asked to be a run first QB in a college offense. Congrats, what a feat! He's a guy winning a batting title in 250 at bats.
So what about executing the system you're put in? Everyone who knew anything about RG3 knew he would be a part of a versatile, multiple, read-based offense. Everyone also knew Luck would likely be a part of a more passing-oriented attack. Why is RG3 denigrated for running his offense at a superior clip to Luck's? It's about execution. You're arguing system not the players.
quote:
Ah, the old "it's the WR getting open" argument. Kinda like the WRs were the reason Tebow couldn't complete a pass in DEN, now they are all world. You should pull your head out your arse and realize it's Luck putting the ball into these guys hands.
You clearly haven't watched any Colts games if you can't recognize Hilton's talent.
Posted on 12/18/12 at 8:53 pm to FootballNostradamus
Luck won't win it. I would still take him in a ny minute over Griffin.
Luck will be a 10-15 year guy at a high level IMO. Griffins style is going to kill him. I want a guy like Brady or Manning that gives me 16 games. I think Luck is that kind of guy.
Griffin is a poor mans Randall Cunningham.
Luck will be a 10-15 year guy at a high level IMO. Griffins style is going to kill him. I want a guy like Brady or Manning that gives me 16 games. I think Luck is that kind of guy.
Griffin is a poor mans Randall Cunningham.
Posted on 12/18/12 at 9:24 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
Sounds like your racists. What do you have against white ppl?
He probably hates their shitty grammar. Fix that ASAP please. Whites need to be better than that!
Posted on 12/18/12 at 9:46 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
You want to knock Luck's "bad" numbers, which are a result of having to throw the ball a ton, but in the same breath want to praise Griffin's, who is 26th in the NFL in pass attempts? Well no shite, he has 4 INT. No shite, he has a high completion %. No shite, his passer rating is through the roof. He is asked to be a run first QB in a college offense. Congrats, what a feat! He's a guy winning a batting title in 250 at bats.
Wow is this off base.
It's more like he's a guy winning the home run title in 250 ABs.
You neglected to point out that in so many less attempts, Griffin still only has 2 less td passes than Luck.
He has a better completion%, td% and int% which negates your attempts logic.
Posted on 12/18/12 at 9:58 pm to shel311
quote:
He has a better completion%, td% and int% which negates your attempts logic.
Luck is out.
Griffin or Wilson should win ROY.
Posted on 12/18/12 at 11:22 pm to FootballNostradamus
I know running QBs (like Griffin) better learn what Steve Young and Randall Cunningham did. You run to buy time in the pocket. If you run as a part of your game like a running back you won't last very long in the NFL. You will always be hurt and miss a lot of games.
Posted on 12/18/12 at 11:45 pm to tiger2012
quote:
Luck is out.
Griffin or Wilson should win ROY.
Agreed.
Pretty sure Wilson will win if the Seahawks win out.
When is the award handed out anyway?
Posted on 12/19/12 at 12:33 am to shel311
quote:
Wow is this off base.
No, not really.
quote:
You neglected to point out that in so many less attempts, Griffin still only has 2 less td passes than Luck.
Sure. If you love someone who throws 44% of his TD passes in two games (one a blowout win, one a close loss).
4 TD passes in two separate games.
2 TD passes in two separate games.
1 TD pass in six separate games.
0 TD passes in 3 separate games.
So 9 of his games yielded 6 TD passes total. Brilliant. We aren't even mentioning the anomaly that is 7 TD passes of 30 yards or more. Of course, this is where you mention his running prowess. He's a great runner, for sure.
quote:
He has a better completion%, td% and int% which negates your attempts logic.
Sample size, dude. The more passes you throw, the lower his percentages go.
Please, tell me this... If he was so good at passing like you people are claiming and could sustain those numbers, don't you think Shannahan would have him throwing 500+ times this season and not rushing the ball 112+ times? He wouldn't be 26th in attempts and he wouldn't be 22nd in yards. Why risk injury running if he's so great at throwing?
If you want to slurp someone's percentages, look at the great QBs who are actually passers and not runner. That, my friend, is impressive.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 7:45 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
GynoSandberg
This is literally turning into one of the most ridiculous, convoluted, nit-picky debates I've ever been a part of.
quote:
Sure. If you love someone who throws 44% of his TD passes in two games (one a blowout win, one a close loss).
4 TD passes in two separate games.
2 TD passes in two separate games.
1 TD pass in six separate games.
0 TD passes in 3 separate games.
So 9 of his games yielded 6 TD passes total. Brilliant. We aren't even mentioning the anomaly that is 7 TD passes of 30 yards or more. Of course, this is where you mention his running prowess. He's a great runner, for sure.
Ok, so we're nit-picking when each QB threw their touchdowns? Is that what this has come to? Ok, I can play that game. You say 9 of RG3's games yielded 6 touchdowns, how about the 7 Andrew Luck games that yielded 4 TDs? Guess what, 6 TDs in 9 games is a higher rate than 4 TDs in 7 games. O and it's a higher sample size ;)
Also, and I'm sure you "coincidentally forgot" to bring this up, but RG3 had all 6 of his rushing TDs in those 9 games giving him 12 total TDs in 9 games. I think most teams can win with that. Maybe it was a case of the defense giving him the run in the redzone and him not forcing the pass. Maybe him taking what the defense gives him is why he has such a low INT ratio.
O, and since we're criticizing our QBs for being inconsistent, let's look at INTs. You criticize RG3's overly prolific games (which I haven't even addressed how absurd it is to point-out two 4 TD games against division rivals late in a playoff run as a negative, but whatever) but never seem to mention the 3 interception games by Luck or even the 2 interception games. Quick, send me a message when RG3 throws 2 interceptions in an NFL game, because it hasn't happened yet.
quote:
We aren't even mentioning the anomaly that is 7 TD passes of 30 yards or more. Of course, this is where you mention his running prowess. He's a great runner, for sure.
The anomaly? Did you follow him at Baylor last year? He lead the league in passes over 30+ yards. He's the best deepball thrower to come into the league in years. I'd argue he has the best deepball in the game right now and it's not really that close. Have you seen some of the bombs he's thrown? They might as well be handoffs. And yes, these are a result of his running prowess and the system they utilize. Do you not understand play action? Do you not understand the bind his system puts safeties in?
quote:
Please, tell me this... If he was so good at passing like you people are claiming and could sustain those numbers, don't you think Shannahan would have him throwing 500+ times this season and not rushing the ball 112+ times? He wouldn't be 26th in attempts and he wouldn't be 22nd in yards. Why risk injury running if he's so great at throwing?
Lol, this is your worst argument by far at this point. You do understand the tried and true method of a power running attack and a ball control offense, right? It's been used in the NFL since the dawn of time. You do realize, even though this may seem antiquated and ancient in today's pass happy NFL, that there are some coaches who prefer to run the ball first? As I mentioned before (but you somehow missed) when RG3 is in the game the Redskins average more yards per play than any team in the NFL. So I ask you, why the frick would they change their offense if this was the case?
quote:
If you want to slurp someone's percentages, look at the great QBs who are actually passers and not runner. That, my friend, is impressive.
As I mentioned previously, you would argue that it's incapable to be an elite QB without throwing the ball 40 times a game? Is that what you're arguing?
As I've said with every Luck-RG3 debate, you Luck fanboys are arguing systems not players. You argue that Luck's system asks him to do more and places more on his shoulders. Luck runs basically the college spread attack we see in the Big 12 or among the likes of Houston. Why were those QBs denigrated and their numbers considered a product of the system when Luck's numbers are paraded around like they're revolutionary?
RG3's team will always be better at running the ball than Luck's. Part of it is absolutely because Morris looks like an absolute manchild and one of the steals of the draft. At the same time, part of it is because of the system and the innate hesitation and indecision it places on defenders due to RG3's rushing abilities.
Why can't it be about execution of a system as opposed to which system you think is superior? RG3 executes his offense to a higher points per game than Lucks (5th overall to 18th overall). RG3 executes his offense at a lower turnover rate than Luck's (4 INTs to 16 INTs). RG3 executes his offense to a higher yards per play than Luck's (Washington is tops in the league). Everything RG3 does is superior to Luck. How are we even having this discussion?
Posted on 12/19/12 at 7:49 am to FootballNostradamus
I would be devastated if Luck won ROY, because I care deeply about this award.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 8:03 am to brgfather129
This thread has gotten good 
This post was edited on 12/19/12 at 8:04 am
Posted on 12/19/12 at 8:37 am to GynoSandberg
Gyno, you sir, are a fricking idiot. Griffin is the MVP of the Redskins. Alfred is a stud for sure but this team will go as far as Griffin takes it. You ask why Griffin runs so much this year? Because he can. No one has been able to shut the Skins down since the bye week. The only teams that have had success in slowing down the Skins were the Panthers and Steelers. The Skins are fourth overall in offense and lead the league in yards per play. They're fifth overall in scoring offense. They're 7-1 when Garcon plays. Other than Alfred and Garcon, Griffin is missing his starting TE and throwing to an aging Moss as wellI as two second year WR's. He's making everyone look good . The team thrives off of him.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 8:58 am to UnluckyTiger
quote:
Griffin is the MVP of the Redskins.
I have no horse in this race, but I think his point at the time was that Griffin was out at the end of a game and then missed last week's game, and Cousins led Washington to victories in both.
This thread has been an interesting read. Both sides have made solid points, and if anything, it shows that the ROY award could go to either of these two players (discounting Wilson for now solely because he hasn't been argued like Luck/RG3) and they would deserve it.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 9:03 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
This thread has been an interesting read. Both sides have made solid points, and if anything, it shows that the ROY award could go to either of these two players and they would deserve it.
This is probably the real answer.
quote:
Discounting Wilson for now solely because he hasn't been argued like Luck/RG3
I never meant to turn this into a Luck/RG3 debate. I actually think, at the moment, Wilson has more of a case than Luck as well although it'll be tougher for him to win, because he came in with none of the hype.
People who support Luck argue the overall records. If the Seahawks win-out in an exponentially tougher conference he would be the most deserving of them all.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 9:16 am to C
quote:
Luck was the only significant change to the colts and has taken them from a 2 win team to nearly 10 wins and a playoff run.
Not true, but enjoy reciting that narrative.
quote:
Using just QB rating in the evaluation is too simplistic.
Yet you are using an oversimplified and false statement.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 9:18 am to C
LINK
But cling to the notion that Luck was the only significant change.
He's had a beastly year, no doubt about that. And this statement:
is why he should get a lot of votes for ROY.
quote:
The Colts turned over nearly two-thirds of its roster from the end of last year to now.
But cling to the notion that Luck was the only significant change.
He's had a beastly year, no doubt about that. And this statement:
quote:
Luck has taken a lot of risks in order to win games. When you are asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game as a rookie and your team makes the playoffs: you are worthy of rookie of the year discussions.
is why he should get a lot of votes for ROY.
Posted on 12/19/12 at 9:44 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
I have no horse in this race, but I think his point at the time was that Griffin was out at the end of a game and then missed last week's game, and Cousins led Washington to victories in both.
Griffin's injury against Atlanta is the primary reason that Washington lost that game. And look at what Cousins did in that one...
Posted on 12/19/12 at 10:30 am to Sophandros
This is a 2 dog race.
Wilson should be a distant 3rd.
Wilson should be a distant 3rd.
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