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Started By
Message
re: SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance
Posted on 6/6/23 at 9:54 am to I Love Bama
Posted on 6/6/23 at 9:54 am to I Love Bama
quote:
2. Is it in a common enterprise? No
quote:
4. Is it derived from the efforts of others? No Running my own minor and node. No need for others.
So your node never interacts with the larger network used by all other BTC users? It's just a dead-end?
The network is the common enterprise and requires efforts of others, otherwise what is BTC?
quote:
3. Does if have an expectation of profit? Maybe
For 99% of users, this is a yes
3
Posted on 6/6/23 at 9:59 am to UltimaParadox
quote:It's not about hopes. It's about the disconcerting signals that Coinbase claims to have received from the US Gov, which seems apparent.
Not sure this is anything to get your hopes up about, just recently the CFTC said this
Posted on 6/6/23 at 10:36 am to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Agree. What’s the SEC play here?
They don't want to give regulatory certainty so the industry can grow, they want to kill it. Some say they can't, that it's too late, which may be true, but they definitely want to kill it. Sovereigns don't generally let alternative currencies gain much traction if they can at all help it. And, to the extent they're investments and not a currency, the SEC isn't going to let them exist except under full SEC regulation/ compliance. Which might not kill that part of the industry, but it's going to make it look very different, because a lot of the value or illusion of value in crypto comes from the lack of regulation on what claims people can make about value.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 10:58 am to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Agree. What’s the SEC play here?
The feds dont want any competition for their digital currency.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:00 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
SlowFlowPro
If this is your argument, you are also arguing that gold is a security then?
The SEC can (and will) regulate centralized digital assets. It's an obvious move and I welcome it.
They can't stop Bitcoin (and they know it) which is why it's already been ruled on as a commodity.
If they do try, they are no doubt just trying the same playbook as they did with gold in 1934 and the results will be the same.
Bitcoin operated for many years without any users expecting a profit. If they did, why did they spend thousands of Bitcoin to buy a pizza or some weed?
LINK
This post was edited on 6/6/23 at 11:09 am
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:15 am to SlowFlowPro
I believe if you read the language of the CFTC and SEC lawsuits against Binance they are consistent with labeling BTC, ETH, and Litecoin as commodities and everything else a security. I think it’s kind of fricked if you have to find regulatory clarity through litigation, but that seems to be what the two agencies are converging to and it seems that’s the process through which we will arrive at clarity.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:19 am to Ross
quote:
I think it’s kind of fricked if you have to find regulatory clarity through litigation
Yes. They want the courts to decide and to leave the markets in complete limbo b/c they don't have the brains or balls to make a call themselves.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:22 am to I Love Bama
quote:
Bitcoin operated for many years without any users expecting a profit. If they did, why did they spend thousands of Bitcoin to buy a pizza or some weed?
BTC was much more like a commodity before that 2017 explosion and then crypto was basically treated as a security across the board after that.
quote:
If this is your argument, you are also arguing that gold is a security then?
No. You can own a piece of gold that can be walled off from the world and put into a lockbox 100 feet underground.
Crypto, by it's very definition, doesn't provide this ability. The entire structure of crypto is based on collaboration and networking.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:23 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The network is the common enterprise and requires efforts of others, otherwise what is BTC?
I’m not a lawyer and therefore don’t know what legal barriers exist historically for something to be considered a common enterprise, but I believe the stated position of the regulatory agencies is the Bitcoin network is sufficiently decentralized as to not be considered a common enterprise.
I have no clue by which metric one establishes a sufficient level of decentralization if we accept this distinction.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:27 am to Ross
quote:
I have no clue by which metric one establishes a sufficient level of decentralization if we accept this distinction.
Therein lies the rub.
It seems to me that they're doing 2 things that are creating issues.
1. They are using legal terms/definitions that could never envision something like crypto, both in the potential for decentralized relationships and ease of creation by jimmies and joes. The traditional concept of securities were monetary instruments created by sophisticated individuals (leading to concepts like the Accredited Investor, built around the assumption of equal sophistication).
2. They are responding to all the pump/dump scams, Ponzi schemes, and outright fraudulent offerings in the most reactionary way. They want to be able to try to segregate ETH and BTC because the market has shown these aren't really mini fraud schemes, but can't be logically consistent in doing so. That's the problem with being reactionary instead of proactive.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:28 am to SlowFlowPro
completely agree
Posted on 6/6/23 at 11:51 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
No. You can own a piece of gold that can be walled off from the world and put into a lockbox 100 feet underground.
What's the difference between this and cold storage?
I know it is a little lengthy, but skim over the link I posted above.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 4:57 pm to SlowFlowPro
You just twisted beanie babies into being a security.
Posted on 6/6/23 at 6:32 pm to tenderfoot tigah
watching Gensler on CNBC is alarming
“Do we really need any other way to transmit value other than the dollar?”
Dude, I don’t think that’s a convincing argument nor is that a question you ought to even be asking in your position. It is simply not in the SEC’s purview to say where Americans are supposed to see value.
This is such a farce, he keeps talking about how we need rules of the road but has failed to provide these rules and just decides to go straight for litigation.
He comes across as just disliking the sector either for personal reasons or because he’s been told to, and he’s on a mission to wreck it and the agency will try and figure out a logically coherent rationale later. I think there are some legitimate common sense regulations that are needed for the exchanges (for example, not commingling customer funds with company funds) but the rhetoric coming out of Gensler is just awful.
I know many people on this board hate the sector and yes there are a lot of issues with many of the projects in it, but the way the SEC has conducted itself is unacceptable.
“Do we really need any other way to transmit value other than the dollar?”
Dude, I don’t think that’s a convincing argument nor is that a question you ought to even be asking in your position. It is simply not in the SEC’s purview to say where Americans are supposed to see value.
This is such a farce, he keeps talking about how we need rules of the road but has failed to provide these rules and just decides to go straight for litigation.
He comes across as just disliking the sector either for personal reasons or because he’s been told to, and he’s on a mission to wreck it and the agency will try and figure out a logically coherent rationale later. I think there are some legitimate common sense regulations that are needed for the exchanges (for example, not commingling customer funds with company funds) but the rhetoric coming out of Gensler is just awful.
I know many people on this board hate the sector and yes there are a lot of issues with many of the projects in it, but the way the SEC has conducted itself is unacceptable.
This post was edited on 6/6/23 at 6:58 pm
Posted on 6/6/23 at 7:23 pm to stout
Brian Armstrong coming in hot.
LINK
LINK
quote:
Regarding the SEC complaint against us today, we're proud to represent the industry in court to finally get some clarity around crypto rules.
Remember:
1. The SEC reviewed our business and allowed us to become a public company in 2021.
2. There is no path to "come in and register" - we tried, repeatedly - so we don't list securities. We reject the vast majority of assets we review.
3. The SEC and CFTC have made conflicting statements, and don't even agree on what is a security and what is a commodity.
4. This is why the US congress is introducing new legislation to fix the situation, and the rest of the world is moving to put clear rules in place to support this technology.
Instead of publishing a clear rule book, the SEC has taken a regulation by enforcement approach that is harming America. So if we need to avail ourselves of the courts to get clarity, so be it.
Btw, in case it’s not obvious, the Coinbase suit is very different from others out there – the complaint filed against us is exclusively focused on what is or is not a security. And we are confident in our facts and the law.
We'll get the job done. In the meantime, let's all keep moving forward and building as an industry. America will get this right in the end.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 6:36 am to I Love Bama
quote:
The SEC can (and will) regulate centralized digital assets. It's an obvious move and I welcome it.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 7:17 am to Hulkklogan
Except ETH is not real money. It's just like the dollar.
They can just decide to print more whenever they want.
Now a digital asset with no CEO and they can't print more of....now that makes me duro en mis pantalones.
They can just decide to print more whenever they want.
Now a digital asset with no CEO and they can't print more of....now that makes me duro en mis pantalones.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 8:10 am to I Love Bama
When you don't seem to understand is that the same can happen with Bitcoin if the social layer and developers decide they want that.
Satoshi didn't magically lock the Bitcoin network code. The code can still be changed. It would be a hard fork, but it still can happen.
The only thing that keeps Bitcoin from issuing more or printing more is the social layer. If the community were to ever split into those who want to print more and don't want to print more, there would be a hard fork. Same thing would happen within Ethereum if there was a significant contingent who wanted to print.
Satoshi didn't magically lock the Bitcoin network code. The code can still be changed. It would be a hard fork, but it still can happen.
The only thing that keeps Bitcoin from issuing more or printing more is the social layer. If the community were to ever split into those who want to print more and don't want to print more, there would be a hard fork. Same thing would happen within Ethereum if there was a significant contingent who wanted to print.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 8:15 am to stout
If anyone is cheering this on, meet me at Sonic. frick the SEC, and especially, frick that douchebag Gary Gensler.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 8:23 am to saint tiger225
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