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My whole life snapshot...wondering if this is the best use of my money

Posted on 11/22/14 at 8:06 am
Posted by LSUDMD
Bluff Park
Member since Feb 2007
37 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 8:06 am
37, married with 2 kids under 6. I own a dental practice. I'm not very savvy as far as investing goes.
So I've got a term policy for 2 million for $106/month, and a whole life policy for $500,000 for $500/month. Cash value increased to $14,979 this year from $9303 last year. Policy started 11/01/2009. I feel like I might be putting this $6000/year (in premiums) in the wrong place. I'm sure this topic has been visited many times before but any advice would be appreciated.
I own a small rental property that is basically just paying for itself without additional income, as well as a couple small Roth IRA's. What do you guys think?
--I realize my post count does not jive with my "member since" status--forgive me, I'm usually a reader/lurker
Many thanks
Posted by b-rab2
N. Louisiana
Member since Dec 2005
12577 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 8:28 am to
Well, you need life insurance. You could probably bump up the rental fee at the new year and start making income on it. That's about as far as I'm going to go with it and let someone else take over the rest for you.

Have you talked with a financial advisor yet? Someone that's not going sit there and sell you cramp all day?
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 9:01 am to
whole life is virtually always a terrible idea. they pay BIG commissions to the agent, which is the primary reason any are sold at all. the money would be very well invested in a whole market index/mutual fund like VTSMX.

you should first be maxing out your retirement accounts, but need to talk to your cpa to determine which is best for you
tax deferred retirement plans

good calculator showing how much you can put in plans

the big issue on some of these plans is having to contribute for all employees...again, your cpa will have to get you details

note: i'm sure i'll have agents telling you why whole or universal life are good policies, but do some research on your own and you'll quickly find virtually no unbiased adviser will agree with them (except in very special situations like estate planning or asset protection)
Posted by LSUDMD
Bluff Park
Member since Feb 2007
37 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 10:06 am to
Kind of what I was thinking. So if I cancel the policy do I forfeit the cash balance? Is there any way to take advantage of the cash that's already accumulated?
Posted by Huey Lewis
BR
Member since Oct 2013
4660 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 10:41 am to
The cash value should be paid to you upon canceling the policy.
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 10:51 am to
quote:

So if I cancel the policy do I forfeit the cash balance?


depends on exactly how it works, but as above poster said, you should be able to get full cash value out and invest it in what you like. There a likely tax consequence of taking the cash out (above what you put into the policy), but you'd have to talk to a CPA about that.
Posted by Sdento1
Member since Aug 2013
30 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 10:54 am to
If you are self employed I would think about starting an individual 401(k) to where you can contribute more (up to 17,500) as the annual contribution or even some type of simple or sep ira( depending if you have employees under you).
The most you can contribute to that is 12k a year, but both of these options are a better growth strategy than permanent life insurance.
To make sure your income is protected in the case of death or disability you needed a ton of term insurance and more than likely some disability income insurance so it would pay you and your expenses in case you were hurt for a period of time. This all depends on your setup(sole prop., partnership, ltc, etc...)
If you are a partner cash value life insurance can make sense if it was structured properly.
I would look that way towards saving and planning with investments and your basics for insurance.
I work as a fin. Planner so let me know if you have any questions( no strings attached)
This is a meaty conversation , but the most I can type with my iPad . Good question
Posted by tes fou
Member since Feb 2014
838 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 11:55 am to
Part of what you need to figure out the answer is if worst case scenario happens today, my wife and family will need (?) dollars to pay off any debts, sell my business, etc and then live.

As you get older your business will be paid for, education loans, property etc. As your assets increase your need for insurance will decrease. This is one of the other reasons why term tends be a better plan.
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 12:24 pm to
1) you should add another million of life insurance. At your age, I would say you need 10 years of income, as a baseline. You can back this off as you age, but inflation will probably take care of that for you.

2) No disability insurance? Big risk. Get some tomorrow. If you lose your ability to be a dentist, you will be in a bind.

3) no retirement savings? You should be maxing out a traditional IRA every year. It is a good savings tool and will reduce your taxes a good bit.

4) Sell the rental property or increase the rent. Sounds like it's just a liability and a pain. You should be getting at least 1% of the value of the home per year in rental income.
Posted by wasteland
City of peace
Member since Apr 2011
5603 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 12:29 pm to
What company issued the whole life policy? How many years are you scheduled to pay?
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 1:10 pm to
quote:

I've got a term policy for 2 million for $106/month, and a whole life policy for $500,000 for $500/month.
Is your brother-in-law an insurance salesman?

Seriously, whole life is almost never a good idea unless you believe at some point while you're still in your "working" days with children you will still be supporting you might have a health problem that would make you uninsurable.

quote:

Cash value increased to $14,979 this year from $9303 last year.
Think of it this way, you spent $6,000 to have the cash value increase $5,600. It's true you had $500,000 in life insurance, too, with the policy during that year, but just look at how little the $2M policy costs relative to your whole life policy.

If you don't have a chronic disease or family history of such that might make you uninsurable for life insurance, you really should re-evaluate that part of your financial planning.

What many people fail to take into account is that at some point in your life (probably 20 years or so from now), you won't need any life insurance at all. When the kids are grown and gone and you've saved some money for retirement, if you die then, your spouse gets the retirement money and the kids won't need any.
Posted by Retrograde
TX
Member since Jul 2014
2900 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 2:35 pm to
Buy life insurance for life insurance, not an investment.

You need to be talking to a financial advisor more and an insurance salesman less.
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
65859 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 4:54 pm to
quote:

Is your brother-in-law an insurance salesman?


Harsh, comrade.

OP, you need a Financial Planner, ask amongst folks you respect and trust in your local area who they use. It's a leap of faith to trust a stranger with your fiscal picture but most of us are not equipped to navigate what we should do or avoid.

Ditto on getting out of the rental property too, it's dead money if all it's doing is carrying its own weight.
Posted by Dr. Shultz
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Jun 2013
6391 posts
Posted on 11/22/14 at 5:14 pm to
How's dentistry going for you? Raking in some good income eh?
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
65859 posts
Posted on 11/23/14 at 3:45 pm to
Dr., I'm going to fill you in, you're going to have to drill down deeper to extract that answer.
Posted by Dr. Shultz
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Jun 2013
6391 posts
Posted on 11/24/14 at 12:11 am to
2 mm is my limit mayne lol

Sometimes I wish people would just let out all their juicy details and give me some insight!
Posted by jglass3lsu
Member since Jan 2007
882 posts
Posted on 11/24/14 at 6:49 am to
Without current net worth, income, years to retirement, and details about your desired standard of living in retirement, answering questions like this is nearly impossible. I'd be hesitant to give that out on the interwebs too though.

Except for the don't buy whole life advice!
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 11/24/14 at 9:22 am to
quote:

Except for the don't buy whole life advice!

+1. Somebody sold you a bum steer. Get outta that, and make sure you're maxing your retirement income in ways that have positive tax consequences (individ IRA maxed, or SEP/etc depending on your practice/partnership).
Posted by iknowmorethanyou
Paydirt
Member since Jul 2007
6550 posts
Posted on 11/24/14 at 11:27 am to
2 ways to fund a life policy...

1. Put in as little as you have to.
2. Put in the most you can to maximize tax-deferred growth and tax-free income.

At $500 per month for $500K, you're accomplishing neither.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89613 posts
Posted on 11/24/14 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

So I've got a term policy for 2 million for $106/month


+ the $500k in whole life is probably too little, but you might have been better served with all term when you bought in.

I mean, I assume you're in the $165k to $200k take home (or better - I don't want to insult you) - and $2.5 million is only going to generate, give or take, $100k per year, at least indefinitely - and maybe $125k to $140k per year for 30 years, assuming that's how long you'd be expected to work.

Now - this doesn't make any assumptions about your debts and expenses, just that your widow would be expected to approximate your income until you would have retired - presumabably the rest would be on her.

quote:

I own a small rental property that is basically just paying for itself without additional income


You mean on top of the debt service, correct?

Unless I way overstated your income, I think you need $3 to $4 million, term - no more than $100k whole (and, honestly, I would just cash it out at this point and use that money to pay your increased term premium for a while) - your net gain should be, give or take $300 a month, and I would add that to your ROTH unless you're tapped out. Otherwise, I would just add it to your mutual fund buy and buy the whole stock market.

You're got 25 to 30 years exposure to the market - that $300/month could be millions - in whole life, it will only be thousands (maybe tens of thousands.)

This post was edited on 11/24/14 at 1:18 pm
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