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3
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:22 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
1) this is not always true. How else do companies find money for year end bonuses for executive? They were sitting on cash. How did my company find cash for a 20% raise mid year?
What does it matter what executives make? You either work for what they offer you or kick rocks. Life isn’t charity, which is what Democrats seem to forget.
What this is going to create is a substantial underclass and substantially more dependent welfare state. There will be no proportional decrease in state government program usage.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:24 pm to tigersfan1989
quote:
It’s mind boggling how some don’t see what is wrong with someone not being able to support themselves on minimum wage for the bare necessities of life.
This argument is dumb. Wrong? What is wrong. People choose to do a job or don’t do it. You control your own labor. You can’t reduce poverty for those with no valuable labor to barter. Labor market is stratified by skill and its demand. “Wrong” isn’t even an argument.
This post was edited on 1/21/21 at 8:26 pm
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:28 pm to DiamondDog
quote:
What does it matter what executives make? You either work for what they offer you or kick rocks.
This is the problem. Why should workers have to kick rocks instead of executives? Right now, it’s because companies have all the power (except for minimum wage and other government regulations that I’m sure you hate). I don’t know if minimum wage is the best way, but I absolutely want workers to be compensated at a fair, livable level. And there is no evidence most companies will do that absent outside pressure.
quote:
People choose to do a job or don’t do it. You control your own labor.
Not if you have a health condition that you can’t afford to treat if you lose health insurance. Not if you need to support kids.
Minimum wage Workers have the ability to choose in the same way someone dying of thirst in the desert can “choose” not to give up their life savings for some water. They can move to get a better job, they can’t negotiate for better pay (without unions). As you so eloquently said, companies can tell them to kick rocks. I’m not ok with that.
This post was edited on 1/21/21 at 8:33 pm
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:32 pm to DiamondDog
If you don’t feel like people should be able to support themselves on the bare necessities of life then I hope you have no problem with government assistance to these people. Shouldn’t people be able to have food and shelter? Or is it tough luck wish you the best
This post was edited on 1/21/21 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:38 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
Raising the minimum wage might not be the best solution, but arguments against a minimum wage rely on assumptions of market efficiency that are demonstrably false such as asymmetrical info about compensation, asymmetrical leverage, and asymmetrical ability to relocate.
Why should someone with absolutely no skills at all make 15 an hour? I have 3 guys that have been at the same rate for 3 months and won't get a raise because they are so sorry. I was quarantined this week and had to shut down the job because there is no one that could do anything at all without me there. Part is failure on my part to be able to figure out a way of training them to do anything at all but most of it falls on the fact that they would rather walk around the corner, when I am trying to teach them, and flip quarters for money or play around behind me while I work my arse off.
Excuse me when I don't feel sorry for people who won't do anything to better themselves. I am lucky when I have a crew of 5 show up in time to leave on time each morning without half being late.
I am currently in the market for a new job because I am tired of dealing with the same dredge of unskilled labor everyday. I am tired of killing myself everyday as the owner of a construction company in the field setting forms, knocking concrete down and finishing it by myself so that an unskilled can sit back and do jack shite. What's better is when you fire one they just go ride unemployment and you hire another that does the same thing.
We have a generation that overvalues themselves and what their time is worth. That is in every aspect of their lives. They think they are much better than they are. That means they are not willing to learn to better themselves because they mostly think they are great just the way they are.
quote:
If markets are efficient, why does my boss try to argue against a raise before giving in? Because he wants to maximize profit and thinks he can convince me to work for less. Which is fine, but don’t tell me companies across the board can’t afford to pay workers more or that the current situation is an efficient outcome for workers
A companies job is to make money plain and simple. Accept that. If you start your own business with the idea of just breaking even and paying well, the first slow month is going to bend you over and those employees that you are treating like gold will leave you the first time you can't pay them. You have to make money and if you have investors, you better be able to make them money too.
If you can walk into the walmart parking lot, point at someone and they walk in and do the same job without training, you deserve minimum wage.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:39 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
this is not always true. How else do companies find money for year end bonuses for executive? They were sitting on cash. How did my company find cash for a 20% raise mid year? They are sitting on it. There is literally a financial reporting requirement for publicly traded companies called “cash on hand”. Sure, they might not want to spend it on wages, but that does not mean they will shut down if wages go up.
When efficiency and/or sales are up, there are bonuses and raises.
You even quoted the part where i addressed this.
Now explain how a mandatory raise improves sales or efficiency.
quote:
The efficient markets in Econ textbooks where companies have to cut costs as low as possible to compete for consumers and reach an efficient equilibrium are nice and neat. But they do not reflect the actual labor market. Most Companies want to pay workers as little as they can get away with and not hurt their bottom line. And because of the asymmetries I mentioned earlier, they are often able to.
Efficient markets have to do with market share.
An efficient company can grow market share.
Market share is important because businesses run on the margins.
More revenue with neutral margins equals more profits.
Economic books have chapters on how efficiency improves at scale.
This is basic stuff (which dems cant comprehend).
quote:
I just want people to stop pretending the current situation is the best workers can hope for.
I dont know what you mean by this but i am generally curious. Maybe there is common ground.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:46 pm to tigersfan1989
quote:
It’s mind boggling how some don’t see what is wrong with someone not being able to support themselves on minimum wage for the bare necessities of life.
What is mind boggling is how a poor class has cell phones, cable/satellite, big screen TVs, air conditioning.
It isnt very poor compared to 90% of the world.
And this poor class you reference isnt on minimum wage. As i said, walmart hires anyone at $10 an hour. It is unskilled labor. If low wages for unskilled labor bothers you, maybe we should reevaluate our immigration policy (prices for low skill labor wont go up with 1,000,000 immigrants coming in a year)
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:47 pm to tigersfan1989
quote:
It’s mind boggling how some don’t see what is wrong with someone not being able to support themselves on minimum wage for the bare necessities of life.
The problem with this is the argument of what is bare necessities and the acceptable living standards. What do you consider bare essentials? I had the argument that a cell phone isn't one and I had others argue that it is. Is a car a bare essential? Is living by yourself in a 2 bedroom apartment bare essential? Is eating out or eating ramen everyday bare essential? I worked my way through Auburn working full-time and going to school full-time. I lived off overdraft checks and ramen for 4 years. I knew when a check would go through my bank if I wrote it to a certain place and would bounce the shite out of 4 or 5 checks at all times but would have my paycheck before they went into my bank. It isn't JCPenney's fault that I was working my way through, I was a low skill employee that was replaceable so they paid me as such. This coming from someone who was never late and worked my arse off while there, they threw me a party when I graduated and left. But I won't fool myself and say I wasn't replaceable.
Money goes farther in some areas than others. Trump got blasted when he said there should be no Federal minimum wage but the rest of what he said was "it should be up to state and local governments"
10 bucks an hour where I live goes much farther than it does in Montgomery or Birmingham. It is just cheaper to live here.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 8:53 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
Right now, it’s because companies have all the power
Well... companies have all of the risk.
Employees have no risk.
You assume that a business owner who can lose everything is more powerful than an employee who is guaranteed a wage, taxes paid, SS/medicare.
Employees become self employed all of the time. But it takes skill, experience, capital, and risk.
If being an employee is so awful, maybe you should look into getting all of the power by opening your own business.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 9:24 pm to meansonny
I'd just say the whole goal should be about striking a balance between paying people a fair real wage that legitimately covers basic cost of living and not passing that cost on to taxpayers. That is more or less taxpayers subsidizing business profits.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 9:38 pm to AUjim
quote:A "fair" wage is based on what one produces, not what their "needs" are. Otherwise we could simply pay half the people to dig holes, tax them at 50%. Use that 50% to pay the other half of the underemployed to fill up the holes and tax them at 50%...to pay the diggers.
a fair real wage that legitimately covers basic cost of living and not passing that cost on to taxpayers
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:02 pm to AUjim
quote:
I'd just say the whole goal should be about striking a balance between paying people a fair real wage that legitimately covers basic cost of living and not passing that cost on to taxpayers. That is more or less taxpayers subsidizing business profits.
I agree with Tax Authority to an extent here. You don't pay someone what they need, you pay them what they are worth. My wife has been in quarantine with me this week and she was supposed to be working remotely and hasn't done shite for 3 days. She has slept in two hours later than me every day, she naps during the day and gets on her computer for about an hour a day. I finished all my paperwork on Monday, I have built a shelf, rewired a room in the house, fixed a leaky faucet, mowed the yard, raked and burned leaves. I got so bored that I grabbed all my cast iron pans, stripped them down and reseasoned them all. She is perfectly content doing nothing and has the attitude a lot of people do now.
I feel bad being at home and am ready to be back at work even though I am paying myself this week and paying all my men to quarantine. She throws it in my face that I make twice that she does but I do probably 20 times more than she does.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:06 pm to Taxing Authority
To add....
I think one of the things that would be very interesting from this would be determining what a minimum liveable wage for a locale would be and take an assessment of the reality of whether or not that opportunity exists in a significant capacity.
I think one of the things that would be very interesting from this would be determining what a minimum liveable wage for a locale would be and take an assessment of the reality of whether or not that opportunity exists in a significant capacity.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:10 pm to AUjim
quote:
basic cost of living
Cell phone, satellite, netflix, a/c, car?
quote:
not passing that cost on to taxpayers
bullshite.
That is never going away. You think a minimum wage changes welfare benefits?
Have you been paying attention the past 80 years? 40 years? You think raising the minimum wage takes away anyone's "entitlements"? Because that is what they are at this point. Entitlements. Permanent slave class.
Businesses are the solution to getting a stronger middle class. Not government.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:42 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
If markets are efficient, why does my boss try to argue against a raise before giving in? Because he wants to maximize profit and thinks he can convince me to work for less. Which is fine, but don’t tell me companies across the board can’t afford to pay workers more or that the current situation is an efficient outcome for workers
Can they afford it? Probably.
But they have other options as well. That's what these people don't understand.
I mean, we have seen this in the last 10 years. Government said, ok, you have to provide health insurance for workers who work over 30 hours a week. They then congratulated themselves over how smart they were in fixing this "problem".
So what did business do? Cut people to 29 hours a week.
These people think decisions like this are made in a vacuum, with no other variables or options. That is simply inaccurate.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:50 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:
This is the problem. Why should workers have to kick rocks instead of executives? Right now, it’s because companies have all the power (except for minimum wage and other government regulations that I’m sure you hate).
Because the executives are judged to have higher skills than many workers.
People are paid based on two, and only two, things.
1) Skill
2) Demand for that skill
It's why good AC repairman can make 6 figures in LA. And it's why the guy cooking french fries at McDonalds make $9/hr.
Low skill, easily replaceable workers will always make crap wages. Instead of worrying about $15/hr, they need to be worried about improving their skill, so they won't be replaced by a machine.
quote:
Not if you have a health condition that you can’t afford to treat if you lose health insurance.
I've said many times on this board, that I believe health insurance needs to be removed from the employment relationship.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 10:53 pm to meansonny
quote:
What is mind boggling is how a poor class has cell phones, cable/satellite, big screen TVs, air conditioning.
A cell phone is required to get and maintain a job. The fact that you think air conditioning in the south should be a luxury is sad.
quote:
I have 3 guys that have been at the same rate for 3 months and won't get a raise because they are so sorry. I was quarantined this week and had to shut down the job because there is no one that could do anything at all without me there.
So fire them. Either someone contributes enough value to justify a livable wage, or you should find someone who does. What you shouldn’t do, is profit off of their labor without adequately compensating them for their time and effort.
quote:
Part is failure on my part to be able to figure out a way of training them to do anything at all
Yeah, sounds like you’re a crappy boss. Maybe you’re the one who should be making minimum wage.
quote:
I am tired of killing myself everyday as the owner of a construction company in the field setting forms, knocking concrete down and finishing it by myself so that an unskilled can sit back and do jack shite.
That’s fair, you don’t want the hassle, fine. But you shouldn’t be profiting off their labor.
quote:
A companies job is to make money plain and simple. Accept that
I refuse to accept that this should be allowed at all costs. That’s why we have OSHA and the EPA. To make sure that companies are not creating profits through exploitation.
quote:
When efficiency and/or sales are up, there are bonuses and raises.
Lol. CEO’s have contracts that reward them even when they fail. In my example, the boss didn’t want to give a raise even though revenue went up. My point is that companies won’t share most of the gains from increased efficiency unless they are forced to. Which is why the current system is broken.
quote:
Economic books have chapters on how efficiency improves at scale.
Responding to my statement that reality is not as simple as an economic textbook by telling me to read an economic textbook. Bold.
quote:
10 bucks an hour where I live goes much farther than it does in Montgomery or Birmingham. It is just cheaper to live here.
If an employee generates $50,000 of value for a company, it shouldn’t matter where that employee lives, they should be compensated according to their value. I’m not saying a federal minimum wage is the only way, but I think the locational pay is another tactic by large companies to justify underpaying workers. It also shouldn’t matter if someone else can generate that same value (replaceability). Whoever is doing the work should be compensated based on value.
quote:
You assume that a business owner who can lose everything is more powerful than an employee who is guaranteed a wage, taxes paid, SS/medicare.
Lol, what? A worker in an at will state is not guaranteed anything. They can be out of a job for no reason at all. It is much harder for a business to go bankrupt than an employee to get fired. And even bankrupt business owners usually don’t lose everything-LLC.
quote:
Bull shite. That is never going away. You think a minimum wage changes welfare benefits?
Well, welfare benefits have income limits, so yes, I feel confident saying that if incomes increase then welfare usage will go down.
This post was edited on 1/22/21 at 5:45 am
Posted on 1/21/21 at 11:06 pm to LSUFanHouston
I’m reminded of a favorite quote from It’s a Wonderful Life: “Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about, they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? Anyway, my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him.”
Or maybe the executive is golf buddies with someone. It’s incredibly unrealistic to say that people with more skill make more money.
While skill and demand for a skill may set the upper limits of compensation, I do not think it is unrealistic to use time to set a lower limit. Everyone has a finite amount of time alive. Why doesn’t using that time to generate value for someone else deserve a minimum level of compensation?
If the employer doesn’t think the employee’s value is enough to offset the cost of that compensation, then they are free to fire them. But they are not free to profit off their labor while paying less than a live able wage. And if they can’t run a business while paying a live able wage, well, they are no more entitled to a business than employees are entitled to $1 million.
quote:
Because the executives are judged to have higher skills than many workers. People are paid based on two, and only two, things. 1) Skill 2) Demand for that skill It's why good AC repairman can make 6 figures in LA. And it's why the guy cooking french fries at McDonalds make $9/hr.
Or maybe the executive is golf buddies with someone. It’s incredibly unrealistic to say that people with more skill make more money.
While skill and demand for a skill may set the upper limits of compensation, I do not think it is unrealistic to use time to set a lower limit. Everyone has a finite amount of time alive. Why doesn’t using that time to generate value for someone else deserve a minimum level of compensation?
If the employer doesn’t think the employee’s value is enough to offset the cost of that compensation, then they are free to fire them. But they are not free to profit off their labor while paying less than a live able wage. And if they can’t run a business while paying a live able wage, well, they are no more entitled to a business than employees are entitled to $1 million.
Posted on 1/21/21 at 11:08 pm to Dixie.Reb
quote:That individual is free to go find another job.
But they are not free to profit off their labor while paying less than a live able wage.
This post was edited on 1/21/21 at 11:08 pm
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