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How are these bankers allowing PPP fraud not busted?
Posted on 8/13/20 at 9:15 am
Posted on 8/13/20 at 9:15 am
So we keep hearing stories of this PPP fraud, and of course there's going to be "businessman" attempting this. But the question I don't understand, is they aren't getting them on their own right? Some bank has to help them? I'm not talking about some small business that 'deserved" $25,000 get $30,000 I'm talking about this guy with say 3 employees getting $1 mil PPP?
Are they not going to go after the bankers that are doing absolutely no auditing before submitting?
I mean hell I wish someone would have rubber stamped mine it wasn't quite a PITA but it wasn't easy for either of mine.
Are they not going to go after the bankers that are doing absolutely no auditing before submitting?
I mean hell I wish someone would have rubber stamped mine it wasn't quite a PITA but it wasn't easy for either of mine.
3
Posted on 8/13/20 at 9:31 am to baldona
I have a whole section of family on my inlaw's side that are ramping up some kind of economic disaster grants like crazy... they signing everyone up including their 5 year old kids and somehow they are all receiving these 10K grants on fast turnaround with basically no questions asked.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 9:47 am to baldona
If they go after the banks for this then no banks will ever participate in this type of thing ever again. Banks already started backing off on taking new customers in the second round due to fraud risk.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 10:54 am to Hermit Crab
As a banker, you can look at everything and check every box and if someone is going to defraud you they’re going to defraud you. We know we get payroll reports and tax forms, but there is no way to audit every single one of those forms nor do we have the knowledge or know how to do so. Nor were we required to do so by Sba’s own guidelines.
When there is that much money moving into the economy as quickly and easily as it did, fraud is going to happen. It’s simply a numbers game.
You can easily go back after the spilt milk and maybe find little nuances you possibly could have caught or questioned further, but hindsight is always 20-20 and we were told by Sba and treasury to get the money on the street. There was no time for a 4 week underwrite of each deal like a normal line of credit would require. And even then fraud still happens.
When there is that much money moving into the economy as quickly and easily as it did, fraud is going to happen. It’s simply a numbers game.
You can easily go back after the spilt milk and maybe find little nuances you possibly could have caught or questioned further, but hindsight is always 20-20 and we were told by Sba and treasury to get the money on the street. There was no time for a 4 week underwrite of each deal like a normal line of credit would require. And even then fraud still happens.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 12:43 pm to audioaxes1
Link?
Posted on 8/13/20 at 1:07 pm to Im4datigers
quote:
As a banker, you can look at everything and check every box and if someone is going to defraud you they’re going to defraud you.
Sure I get that absolutely, but at the same time I believe I had to submit somethings that would make some of this very VERY obvious. Such as, bank statements for 2-3 months or a tax form.
You are certainly right in that maybe these guys are forging all the bank statements, tax forms, payroll forms, etc.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 2:27 pm to baldona
We got tax forms 940/941's that looked completely legit along with an application and the whole nine yards. Everything matched up and we funded the loan. It wasn't until the customer made one small mis-step before funding that raised a couple of eyebrows or we would have had $500k out the door with total fraud and a phony company. Every single thing lined up exactly how it should have.
These guys were professionals fraudsters and knew what they were doing. Lucky for us they got dumb right at the last minute and made one very small mistake which cost them.
These guys were professionals fraudsters and knew what they were doing. Lucky for us they got dumb right at the last minute and made one very small mistake which cost them.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 3:58 pm to baldona
quote:
Sure I get that absolutely, but at the same time I believe I had to submit somethings that would make some of this very VERY obvious. Such as, bank statements for 2-3 months or a tax form.
You are certainly right in that maybe these guys are forging all the bank statements, tax forms, payroll forms, etc.
The bigger banks were taking a long time to process the apps, and were cherry-picking their clients.
Some smaller outfits, and places that are more non-traditional, were accepting anyone and rolling through them quickly.
I'm wondering if when we start really finding out who the fradulent appliers were, if they are all gathered around a few "banks".
Posted on 8/13/20 at 4:59 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
I'm wondering if when we start really finding out who the fradulent appliers were, if they are all gathered around a few "banks".
This will absolutely happen. There's going to be some shady bankers that get caught helping out a bunch of folks without a doubt. I'm not saying that's it as a whole for bankers, that was part of my point here.
I'm not so sure some businessman didn't meet the bankers at a bar and hash some schemes out here.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 5:33 pm to baldona
quote:
This will absolutely happen. There's going to be some shady bankers that get caught helping out a bunch of folks without a doubt. I'm not saying that's it as a whole for bankers, that was part of my point here.
I'm not so sure some businessman didn't meet the bankers at a bar and hash some schemes out here.
Sure. First the feds have to figure out the fraudsters, and then they have to connect the dots. Then, they will find out that Banker A has a dozen fraud cases. Then, they will start to check out ALL the apps from Banker A. Then, build a case.
Look at the millions and millions in fraud going on with First NBC, and it's taken several years to build that case, with insanely obvious fraud going on.
These cases take time, hopefully the feds will keep on it and not lose interest.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 5:39 pm to LSUFanHouston
Sure but I'm mostly talking about the guys that got absurd amounts. Like the one guy in Miami that got like 4 PPP's all for $1 mil.
I have a hard time believing he went to 4 different banks, more likely one banker helped push them through. If that one banker allowed one guy $4 mil, it seems very likely they helped others.
Now, its certainly plausible they simply found one easy bank and went to different branches so as not to get caught as easy.
But these guys were buying Lambo's and what not. I have a hard time believing they were THAT smart. Seems more likely they had help.
I have a hard time believing he went to 4 different banks, more likely one banker helped push them through. If that one banker allowed one guy $4 mil, it seems very likely they helped others.
Now, its certainly plausible they simply found one easy bank and went to different branches so as not to get caught as easy.
But these guys were buying Lambo's and what not. I have a hard time believing they were THAT smart. Seems more likely they had help.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 7:11 pm to baldona
I'm not sure you understand how easy it was to get a PPP loan. It was like candy on Halloween.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 7:30 pm to VABuckeye
Exactly. Insanely easy.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 7:50 pm to Im4datigers
And on top of being easy to fake the few documents required, the banks were overwhelmed with applications and there was no way to fully check every application that came through the doors.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 8:05 pm to baldona
That’s an easy question that shouldn’t need to be answered, because most are scumbags.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 8:48 pm to shackleford318
Awe did somebody get declined for a loan
Posted on 8/13/20 at 8:52 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
I'm not sure you understand how easy it was to get a PPP loan. It was like candy on Halloween.
Well I got 2 of them...that was my point. Maybe I chose the wrong banks. The aholes that just gave them away, they need to be audited. My entire point here...
ETA: with all due respect and you are a great poster so I’m not calling you out, but you had to find some banker in Texas that was out of state for most guys on here you tried to help...maybe those are the guys that should be audited...
This post was edited on 8/13/20 at 8:54 pm
Posted on 8/13/20 at 9:14 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
I'm not sure you understand how easy it was to get a PPP loan. It was like candy on Halloween
If you really want to say how ridiculously easy it was, don’t call it a “loan”. Call it what it really was - a government handout. Nobody is paying back those forgivable loans.
Posted on 8/13/20 at 10:43 pm to Im4datigers
quote:
As a banker, you can look at everything and check every box and if someone is going to defraud you they’re going to defraud you. We know we get payroll reports and tax forms, but there is no way to audit every single one of those forms
Ha, um tie the payroll report to a bank statement for one month?
Posted on 8/14/20 at 9:06 am to Im4datigers
quote:
As a banker, you can look at everything and check every box and if someone is going to defraud you they’re going to defraud you. We know we get payroll reports and tax forms, but there is no way to audit every single one of those forms nor do we have the knowledge or know how to do so. Nor were we required to do so by Sba’s own guidelines.
I understand all of this, but to OP's point...how does a small business with less than 20 employees get over $1M and not raise any flags? The annual cap per employee was $100k. Yet, when you look at the FOIA, there are a number of companies that rec'd over 1M and had very few employees. There were a number of banks that were doing the due diligences that they could, and there were a number that were giving people everything they wanted without doing any due diligences.
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