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Message
re: Why Pull a Starter Who is Throwing a No-Hitter
Posted on 7/12/24 at 1:22 pm to Tenntig
Posted on 7/12/24 at 1:22 pm to Tenntig
quote:
Twenty and more complete games was common place into the 1980's but there has been just one double-digit (11) complete game performance in 21st Century.
That particular guy (James Shields in 2011) was out of the league in 6 years after running into arm issues.
Dusty Baker ruined young pitcher usage forever when he made Mark Prior's arm fall off. Ever since, GMs have been protective of their investments.
0
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:14 pm to Tenntig
Skenes was at 100 pitches, it was time, his manager said he was tiring. There is zero reason to stress Skenes right now. And until he is traded there probably wont be a meaningful game for him to pitch in as a Pirate. Stay healthy, stay dominant and the Pirates will trade him for a dozen players with zero impact on the game.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:39 pm to Tenntig
It is completely reasonable to have him on a pitch count now
But sometimes the reward is worth considering deviating from the norm. IMO, yesterday was one of those situations.
Skenes was at 99 pitches going into the 8th. He was coming off a 6 pitch 7th inning, so it wasn't like he was coming off heavy labor in the inning before. A no hitter is still a big accomplishment. And for a team like the Pirates, who are going nowhere, it would have brought some attention. But more than that, this was Skenes's last start before the break. It Pittsburgh was planning to keep him on the normal rotation, that meant he would have had nearly two weeks rest between starts (not counting the minimal work he will do in the AS game).
With THAT particular combination of variables it wouldn't have been unreasonable to give him a shot at a no-no. At least by sending him out in the 8th. If he were at 113 pitches at the end of the 7th in a regular game in June with his next start scheduled on regular rest, then the decision to pull him would have been very easy. With 99 pitches ahead of a increased period of rest that was the game to extend him a bit.
It Pittsburgh wants to implement load management, they will have plenty occasions to do so in the second half because it is unlikely they will be competing for the postseason play in September.
But sometimes the reward is worth considering deviating from the norm. IMO, yesterday was one of those situations.
Skenes was at 99 pitches going into the 8th. He was coming off a 6 pitch 7th inning, so it wasn't like he was coming off heavy labor in the inning before. A no hitter is still a big accomplishment. And for a team like the Pirates, who are going nowhere, it would have brought some attention. But more than that, this was Skenes's last start before the break. It Pittsburgh was planning to keep him on the normal rotation, that meant he would have had nearly two weeks rest between starts (not counting the minimal work he will do in the AS game).
With THAT particular combination of variables it wouldn't have been unreasonable to give him a shot at a no-no. At least by sending him out in the 8th. If he were at 113 pitches at the end of the 7th in a regular game in June with his next start scheduled on regular rest, then the decision to pull him would have been very easy. With 99 pitches ahead of a increased period of rest that was the game to extend him a bit.
It Pittsburgh wants to implement load management, they will have plenty occasions to do so in the second half because it is unlikely they will be competing for the postseason play in September.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 2:58 pm to Tenntig
Yesterday, I was pissed that they pulled him after I tuned in and casually watched the 6th and 7th at work. Would’ve screamed from the mountain tops how lame it was.
Then, after heard Coach say he was gassed, I rewatched his 7th inning and you could see it watching more closely. They were up there hacking, which helped him go quick. Also, Paul definitely didn’t give a shite based on how happy he looked in the dugout during the Top 8th.
So, in this situation, to me that’s good management of your guy based on great observation and coaching.
On the other hand, I do completely hate when coaches rely solely on analytics, pitch count, and “load management”. And also the people who support it. That’s lame arse shite. Just don’t think this was the case here.
Then, after heard Coach say he was gassed, I rewatched his 7th inning and you could see it watching more closely. They were up there hacking, which helped him go quick. Also, Paul definitely didn’t give a shite based on how happy he looked in the dugout during the Top 8th.
So, in this situation, to me that’s good management of your guy based on great observation and coaching.
On the other hand, I do completely hate when coaches rely solely on analytics, pitch count, and “load management”. And also the people who support it. That’s lame arse shite. Just don’t think this was the case here.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:00 pm to goatmilker
quote:
He was stopped because his coach said it was easy to see he was gassed.
He threw 6 pitches in the 7th and 7 pitches in the 6th. I seriously doubt the validity of easily seeing he was gassed when he threw 13 pitches over his last 2 innings.
quote:
There are hundreds of coaches who left pitchers in and then got hurt.
For one game? give me a break. There are not hunderds of guys who got hurt b/c they threw 115 instead of 100 pitches this one time in 30 starts.
No one is asking for him to extend Skenes every game, but when a completely healthy guy is on the verge of doing something historic, let him chase history.
Baseball is a game of stats and history. It's one of the things that makes baseball special, and what allows us to compare Aaron Judge to Babe Ruth, or Paul Skenes to Nolan Ryan. What fun is it to remove that aspect of the game?
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:02 pm to Alt26
quote:
But sometimes the reward is worth considering deviating from the norm.
I agree.
quote:
IMO, yesterday was one of those situations.
I disagree. Skenes was announced as the starting pitcher for NL in Tuesday’s All-Star game. Add 30 high stress pitches to his total yesterday, and he probably wouldn’t have even taken off his turf shoes Tuesday. Tough call, but starting the All-Star game as a rookie >> potentially throwing a July no-hitter against the Brewers during the day.
If they were at home at night in front of a packed crowd, the calculus might have been different. But I still think starting the All Star game is a bigger deal. No-hitters aren’t all that rare anymore anyway. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, they were a much bigger deal. Seemed like just a couple a year, and there were even years without any. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but there was a stretch not too long ago where it seemed like there was 1 every other week. Look up all the no-names you’ve never heard of who’ve thrown no-hitters in the last 20 years. Now find 1 All-Star game starter in the last 20 years you’ve never heard of.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:05 pm to Tenntig
quote:
Paul Shenes
this made me read the whole post as if it had a lisp.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:08 pm to CWilken21
quote:Compared to his usual 99-101 fastball and 94-96 splitter
Fastball was at 97, splitter 93 in the 7th. I'm no MLB skip but to me its hard to say he was gassed when he was still hitting these numbers
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:08 pm to FreddieMac
quote:
because he hit 100 pitches
Meh, Nolan Ryan through 235 pitches in one game and threw 98 mph fastball with a torn ligament in his arm. Suck it up pussies
This post was edited on 7/12/24 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:15 pm to Tenntig
Nolan Ryan is an outlier. His arm just had an amazing longevity. Genetics? Something he did? Dunno.
But using his career as justification for extending another's outing isn't good rationale.
But using his career as justification for extending another's outing isn't good rationale.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:17 pm to WigSplitta22
No one compares to Nolan. He is a genetic freak and a complete badass of all baddasses.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:19 pm to Ash Williams
quote:
who
You know, that guy who is dating Lizzy Bunne.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:21 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Skenes was at 100 pitches, it was time, his manager said he was tiring. There is zero reason to stress Skenes right now. And until he is traded there probably wont be a meaningful game for him to pitch in as a Pirate. Stay healthy, stay dominant and the Pirates will trade him for a dozen players with zero impact on the game.
This reads like something said by a dyed in the wool Pirates fan, anticipating the doom.
The Pirates have some interesting pieces in the league and coming up through the farm system. It could gel within the next couple of years allowing for a serious run at a championship, before the anticipated inevitable doom.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:21 pm to TeddyPadillac
Yeah. The whiners saying “mehhhh…. take him out…. Mehhhhhhh…. He’s going to get Hurt if he throws over 100 pitches….. mehhhhhh” don’t know anything about body kinetics, or what our guy can or cannot handle.
Just think that in this scenario, if the Coach felt it was the right move based on what he saw, and Paul wasn’t fighting it, then it was a good choice. Also, I can almost guarantee that the Big Man will have plenty of No-Nos and hopefully Perfect Games going into the later innings in his career.
Just think that in this scenario, if the Coach felt it was the right move based on what he saw, and Paul wasn’t fighting it, then it was a good choice. Also, I can almost guarantee that the Big Man will have plenty of No-Nos and hopefully Perfect Games going into the later innings in his career.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:22 pm to Tenntig
…because he’s a 250M asset.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:24 pm to TeddyPadillac
It's what the coach said after the game. Believe him or not.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:32 pm to goatmilker
Guessing few here watch, or even pay attention to, MLB. A starting pitcher, in general, seldom if ever goes past 6 innings. Obvious here as he had another no-hitter going into the 6th inning a few games back & that outing is not mentioned here. Calling him a pussy just shows your ignorance about today's MLB.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:33 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Skenes was at 100 pitches, it was time, his manager said he was tiring. There is zero reason to stress Skenes right now. And until he is traded there probably wont be a meaningful game for him to pitch in as a Pirate. Stay healthy, stay dominant and the Pirates will trade him for a dozen players with zero impact on the game.
Tell me that you don’t follow MLB or the Pirates other than checking box score when Paul Skenes pitches without telling me! This is so dumb haha.
The Pirates could be the best situated team to succeed in the NL Central for the foreseeable future. They have arguably the best pitcher in the league as a rookie, their second rookie flamethrower was one of the early faves for Rookie of the year, and Mitch Keller is a really good, relatively young (28 y/o) pitcher as well.
They need bats in a bad way, but man, those 3 guys can win you a lot of games. I’d bet they make some moves and contend for the division in the next 2 seasons.
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:36 pm to Tenntig
Why push a guy in his 11th start? He was at 99 pitches and while he was cruising there was no real purpose. Say he had gone out in the 8th thrown 13 pitches and kept the no-no then people would want him out for the 9th even though he was coming up on 120 pitches. I also get he routinely did that in college but giving max effort in MLB is different than pitching in college. College he faced maybe 3-4 hitters who would see minor league ball a game and maybe 1-2 against elite teams who would see MLB action. So it is different even though he is "just throwing a baseball"
Posted on 7/12/24 at 3:37 pm to Keltic Tiger
quote:
Guessing few here watch, or even pay attention to, MLB.
I think this is a reality. Most watch LSU baseball and a smattering of college baseball and Skenes is an LSU guy and that's the lens they watch this through. Nothing wrong with it but I think those folks do lack the perspective of what major league baseball is on a day-to-day, game-to-game basis.
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