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re: Was always taught: an officiating crew never inserts

Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:31 am to
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
10491 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:31 am to
quote:

facing any adversary


While adversary is a word, you are seeking adversity...
Posted by Nutriaitch
Montegut
Member since Apr 2008
9860 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:40 am to
quote:

I do see the nod to nostalgia with your suggestion, which might help some of the folks in here crying about changing the game, like that doesn't happen all the time, deal with the change that has them all tied up in knots.


it's not so much the "nostalgia", it's more that I enjoy the extra strategy that goes into one game vs the next.


Posted by HeadCall
Member since Feb 2025
2723 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:45 am to
quote:

While adversary is a word, you are seeking adversity...


You got me. That’s an embarrassing mistake. I won’t edit the post though because I don’t run around changing things every time something doesn’t go my way.
Posted by mdomingue
Lafayette, LA
Member since Nov 2010
38675 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:54 am to
quote:

it's not so much the "nostalgia", it's more that I enjoy the extra strategy that goes into one game vs the next.



I can see that
Posted by mdomingue
Lafayette, LA
Member since Nov 2010
38675 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 10:54 am to
quote:

Re read, I most certainly did not.



You are correct, I missed it.
Posted by SouthernInsanity
Shadows of Death Valley
Member since Nov 2012
22680 posts
Posted on 5/12/25 at 11:00 am to
quote:

That’s just baseball


^^^^ that's a lazy response.
Posted by TigerSooner
Member since Nov 2023
3386 posts
Posted on 5/13/25 at 9:16 pm to
Having a Napoleon Complex is a requirement to be a sports official.
Posted by Eternally Undefeated
Member since Aug 2008
924 posts
Posted on 5/13/25 at 9:27 pm to
Who programs the AI? Does it travel from park to park with the umps or does each home field have its own equipment? Is there no way to bias it in favor of one team or the other?

I am not trying to be a smartass. I just have no idea how AI works.
Posted by 62zip
One Particular Harbor
Member since Aug 2005
6709 posts
Posted on 5/13/25 at 10:05 pm to
Well that didn't go the way the OP was hoping it would.
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
42119 posts
Posted on 5/13/25 at 11:23 pm to
The rulebook defines the strike zone, and that's the way the umps should call it.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
21960 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 1:41 am to
Count me as one against the AI strikezone.

We usually bitch about umps squeezing our pitcher or inconsistent strike zones, but that helps maintain competitive balance. The batter has to learn how the ump is calling it, too.

Now consider- if you go by the actual defined strike zone, (I believe it's bottom of letters to knee, but whatever the current definition is)... and you set up lasers and whatnot, anyone with the resources to do so can clearly and exactly determine what their own strike zone is. Sure, there's pitcher height and arm angle to factor in, but that can be addressed. And thus the further you get into baseball, as long as your own height doesn't change, the more you can learn EXACTLY where the zone is for you.
Get a batter to chase a pitch... well you spend a few offseasons focusing on the outside pitch. Or the high or low pitch, etc. You will get it down to the inch.

If you remove all the guessing from the batter, a GOOD batter is going to murder pitchers. He doesn't have to adjust to the ump, only to the pitcher's release point, something he simulated after scouting who's starting and their bullpen.
MLB guys will set their machines to simulate Skenes with velocity and release, and dial in on him. And WON'T chase any balls; it's just whether he can get it past them or not.
And with such changes, it's very hard to go back once you do it.
Posted by mdomingue
Lafayette, LA
Member since Nov 2010
38675 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 6:46 am to
quote:

Who programs the AI? Does it travel from park to park with the umps or does each home field have its own equipment? Is there no way to bias it in favor of one team or the other?

I am not trying to be a smartass. I just have no idea how AI works.



The conference office sets up the strike zone. It would look like the pitch boxes you used to see showing the strike zone, but a program determines balls and strikes rather than a person viewing a screen and delivering that to the ump and the coaches (maybe the announcers as well or even the PA in the stadium). It could also be used to determine check swings using similar visualization programming. I used the term AI, but it probably does not have to be that sophisticated; it's just a term everyone is familiar with now.

Almost anything can be biased. Certainly, code can be set up that way. Any biasing should be readily identifiable in the code, so maybe they would have an independent verifier to check the code.
Posted by Nutriaitch
Montegut
Member since Apr 2008
9860 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 7:55 am to
quote:

Now consider- if you go by the actual defined strike zone, (I believe it's bottom of letters to knee, but whatever the current definition is


first you would need to plaster the definition with pictures in crayons on the screen every other batter so the fans can learn what the actual strike zone is.






which means this is a strike




and roughly 100% of the posters here will cry the moment that's called a strike when an opposing pitcher throws it.



quote:

MLB guys will set their machines to simulate Skenes with velocity and release, and dial in on him. And WON'T chase any balls


the reason Skenes is so damn good isn't because batters have to guess the strike zone.
it's because they have to guess where his pitch is actually going.

His fastball has a measured horizontal run of 17" (which happens to be exact width of home plate). While his slider has 15" of break the opposite direction.

and he can start one a foot off the plate that breaks back and grabs 3" or can start another dead center that ends up in the 3b dugout.

And if you watch overlays of all of his pitches (the Pitching Ninja does those videos online somewhere) they all are released from identical release points and are in almost exactly the same spot a noticeable distance from his hand before they go their separate directions.

here's his fastball and cutter.
batter has to commit before the pitches even separate.




and screenshots for you too

near identical release points


look how far into their paths those pitches are before separating


and then look how far apart they finish



THAT is why Skenes gets so many swings and misses.
not because the batter has to guess what's a ball and strike from the umpire.

Posted by TackySweater
Member since Dec 2020
20962 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 8:09 am to
quote:

Great. Then take away the ball/strike responsibility and make them only responsible for the rest of the calls.

But how will purists still get the great human aspect to be part of the game?

MuH uNwRiTtEn RuLeZ
Posted by moneyg
Member since Jun 2006
59720 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 8:33 am to
quote:

I believe 1/3rd of calls are overturned on replay


Is that bad?
Posted by Nutriaitch
Montegut
Member since Apr 2008
9860 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 9:38 am to
quote:

I believe 1/3rd of calls are overturned on replay



quote:

Is that bad?



considering most of the calls that are challenged are so close you need a slow motion frame by frame (the SEC uses a system named "HawkEye" to produce the video) to make a change, I'd say that isn't horrible.
Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
2204 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

Was always taught: an officiating crew never inserts wfallstiger itself into a contest which results in them being visible.

I was never actually taught that. I've heard it for a long time, but my personal experience has led me to not believe it. I really don't know why people keep propagating that myth.
Posted by Ponchy Tiger
Ponchatoula
Member since Aug 2004
47767 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 1:36 pm to
quote:

That’s just baseball


That is a dumb excuse that has been used for generations by ignorant motherfrickers that are used to just bending over and taking up the arse. That is why baseball has been surpassed by football and basketball
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
21960 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 1:40 pm to
quote:

THAT is why Skenes gets so many swings and misses.
not because the batter has to guess what's a ball and strike from the umpire.

You misunderstand me

I'm not saying Skenes is good only because teams have to guess his zone, he's obviously great. I just used him as an extreme example.

My point is, if you drop the home plate ump's strikezone and make it AI/computer controlled, a batter will eventually learn EXACTLY what his zone is. EXACTLY. At which point he can start to learn EXACTLY where the boundaries are, and eliminate the "close" pitch. It will become something tailored into individual training, "this is a strike on the outside edge, and that is a ball outside".
And it will not vary from ump to ump. It may vary from pitcher to pitcher, depending on release point; but you'd obviously prep for a Skenes in particular, so you know what a Skenes strike vs ball looks like.

And Skenes (for example) would not be able to ride his reputation to get a close call, or get the call because his control is on and he's hitting his spots. We know that happens, umps do give pitchers benefit of the doubt on both things at times. Instead of Skenes, let's say Maddux instead- you knew he was precise with great command. He painted an edge, catcher didn't move at all, ump likely gives him that. His zone might get bigger because you knew Maddux was able to do what he did. With a technology strike zone, you don't get any of that... if he missed the edge by a quarter inch, it's a ball.
Posted by Hermit Crab
Under the Sea
Member since Nov 2008
7304 posts
Posted on 5/14/25 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

e. I believe 1/3rd of calls are overturned on replay


So after the coaches/staff watch a slo mo replay and decide it is close enough to challenge, the refs/umps are still right 66% of the time at live speed. Not to mention all the calls they get right that aren't challenged?

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