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Message
re: The O line is simply not good
Posted on 11/18/18 at 3:23 pm to LSUStar
Posted on 11/18/18 at 3:23 pm to LSUStar
They ARE generally serviceable for 75% of the nation's competition. Thus the 42 (should have been 56) points scored last night.
But against the SEC elite lines and Miami...not as impressive.
Injuries and minimal depth have really hurt the line this year. I hear Nola00 point about recurring top 10 recruiting classes but those are composite not Oline specific.
I think the biggest farce is that changing scheme will always result in offensive production. Changing to avoid specific weaknesses and capitalize on specific strengths is always good. But when the weaknesses of the current line are inside run, outside run, lateral release and screen protection, and pocket protection...there isn't much that changing scheme will help. Especially when facing dominate D lines and LBs.
Position specific technique and skill set, intrapositiin coordination, strength and conditioning, and tempo can all be taught to lessen weaknesses and certainly fall on the coaches. Individual strength, position knowledge, experience, and athletic skill set falls on the players also though. There is no causation that is singular. It is a multifactoral problem that starts with recruiting for strength speed and depth at o line and includes player development and coaching.
But against the SEC elite lines and Miami...not as impressive.
Injuries and minimal depth have really hurt the line this year. I hear Nola00 point about recurring top 10 recruiting classes but those are composite not Oline specific.
I think the biggest farce is that changing scheme will always result in offensive production. Changing to avoid specific weaknesses and capitalize on specific strengths is always good. But when the weaknesses of the current line are inside run, outside run, lateral release and screen protection, and pocket protection...there isn't much that changing scheme will help. Especially when facing dominate D lines and LBs.
Position specific technique and skill set, intrapositiin coordination, strength and conditioning, and tempo can all be taught to lessen weaknesses and certainly fall on the coaches. Individual strength, position knowledge, experience, and athletic skill set falls on the players also though. There is no causation that is singular. It is a multifactoral problem that starts with recruiting for strength speed and depth at o line and includes player development and coaching.
2
Posted on 11/18/18 at 3:28 pm to Bleeding purple
Who are you, Studrawa?
Posted on 11/18/18 at 3:39 pm to TigerJeff
You say scheme then complement the unpredicatbility, refuse to acknowledge the multiplicity of various short mid and long routes that have been used, ignore the misdirection plays like middle screens, counters, play action and RPOs, and then admit poor PLAYER EXECUTION for the screen passes that fit your perceived scheme improvements. Then complain about a player not being ready as evidence of poor scheme.
What misdirection heavy scheme do you believe can improve an offense with subpar oline play?
Reverses? Take too long to develop in a rapidly collapsing backfield with heavy outside containment.
Under center quick passes to the flats? Tried and failed against bama an others. Line cant protect Joe without a drop or shotgun position. Sec corners shut that shite down.
What misdirection heavy scheme do you believe can improve an offense with subpar oline play?
Reverses? Take too long to develop in a rapidly collapsing backfield with heavy outside containment.
Under center quick passes to the flats? Tried and failed against bama an others. Line cant protect Joe without a drop or shotgun position. Sec corners shut that shite down.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 4:11 pm to Bleeding purple
I do not disagree, but all of it is on the coaching. 100% A they recruit and develop them (or not).
Posted on 11/18/18 at 4:14 pm to countrytiger60
quote:
so you are saying that it's the coaches fault for the six dropped passes!
Is it 1 or 2 players with the dropsies? Or is it pretty evenly distributed butterfingers throughout the whole receiving corps? If it's only a couple receivers than I would say it's those receivers but when it's an entire position group then it's obviously a coaching issue, unless you want everybody believe that the entire receiving group can't catch the ball. A receiving group that has four and five star players litter throughout it.
Let me put it another way, when you're out in public and you see a family with four kids and one of the kids is losing their mind, you say to yourself, "that's a bad arse kid that needs its butt whooped".
Now what do you say to yourself when you see a family with three little terrors that aren't listening to anybody? I'll tell you what you say. "Those are some shity parents right there."
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 4:15 pm
Posted on 11/18/18 at 4:15 pm to justice
Why did anyone thing Cregg would be a homerun hire anyway? Wasn’t he an assistant to an OL coach in the NFL?
Posted on 11/18/18 at 4:16 pm to Bleeding purple
Almost everything that you're saying is on coaching. Our players are not dumb. That all screams a lack of preparedness and discipline.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 4:45 pm to abellsujr
As stated several times, I'm not assigning causality to anyone. I'm just pointing out that the line is location of the offenses major struggles.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 6:52 pm to Bleeding purple
I’d just like to commend you on astute, detailed observations that you are backing up with information rather than innuendo, and for making an observation without assigning causality.
Not too much of this kind of actual football discussion on here. I hate to see someone getting beat up for it.
Agree or disagree, you made points and offered supporting evidence, without all
the BS and hyperbole.
Great example for all guys who crow about ‘being objective’ , while simply calling people names.
Not too much of this kind of actual football discussion on here. I hate to see someone getting beat up for it.
Agree or disagree, you made points and offered supporting evidence, without all
the BS and hyperbole.
Great example for all guys who crow about ‘being objective’ , while simply calling people names.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:16 pm to nola000
LSU has had a below average (SEC average) offensive line for 3 or 4 years. We have not been able to pass protect on know passing down and distance for several years.
When Orgeron took over going into the 2017 season we had 11offensive lineman. Most programs have 16 to 17.
We returned 23 or 24 offensive line game starts Brumfield was 12pf those Anyway. We returned 3 offensive starters. One receiver with more than 10catches and a new QB.
We still won 9 games so,far. When you know it alls said 6 or 7.
We will beatnTAM this week as well. Probably will win a bowl game too.
When Orgeron took over going into the 2017 season we had 11offensive lineman. Most programs have 16 to 17.
We returned 23 or 24 offensive line game starts Brumfield was 12pf those Anyway. We returned 3 offensive starters. One receiver with more than 10catches and a new QB.
We still won 9 games so,far. When you know it alls said 6 or 7.
We will beatnTAM this week as well. Probably will win a bowl game too.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:17 pm to mhc4tigers
quote:
When Orgeron took over going into the 2017 season we had 11offensive lineman
No we didn’t.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:25 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Injuries
It's really that simple.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:53 pm to Bleeding purple
Sigh.
I'm saying if Brennan went to Wash. St., HE may very well be leading the country in passing. I'm saying Harris, Jennings, Burrow, were are all highly-recruited. AS WERE THE OFFENSIVE LINEMEN. You telling me LSU has had the misfortune of recruiting from the same pool of players every year, and manages to pick shitty offensive linemen, but good defensive linemen? Doesn't compute.
The offensive scheme does not put the players in the best positions to succeed. The defensive players get the jump on the offensive linemen and beat them to the punch, to the spot.
Sure, we TRY to run screen passes, but can't execute them b/c either (a) they're poorly designed, or (b) poorly coached. Ensminger was the tight end coach on this staff toiling under relative obscurity, but suddenly he's a quarterback whisperer? C'mon.
I'll be thrilled with a 10 win season if they can manage to beat A&M and earn a NYD Six bowl. But it will be in spite of the offense, not b/c of it. Look at the rankings ... generally, in the 90s. GARBAGE.
I'm saying if Brennan went to Wash. St., HE may very well be leading the country in passing. I'm saying Harris, Jennings, Burrow, were are all highly-recruited. AS WERE THE OFFENSIVE LINEMEN. You telling me LSU has had the misfortune of recruiting from the same pool of players every year, and manages to pick shitty offensive linemen, but good defensive linemen? Doesn't compute.
The offensive scheme does not put the players in the best positions to succeed. The defensive players get the jump on the offensive linemen and beat them to the punch, to the spot.
Sure, we TRY to run screen passes, but can't execute them b/c either (a) they're poorly designed, or (b) poorly coached. Ensminger was the tight end coach on this staff toiling under relative obscurity, but suddenly he's a quarterback whisperer? C'mon.
I'll be thrilled with a 10 win season if they can manage to beat A&M and earn a NYD Six bowl. But it will be in spite of the offense, not b/c of it. Look at the rankings ... generally, in the 90s. GARBAGE.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 8:37 pm to TigerJeff
Sigh.
I'm telling you we have not recruited O line well, have had injuries and suspensions that negatively effected those we did recruit. I'm not sure how that is hard to compute. Just because a team recruits good LB does not mean it recruits equally well for RB or good WR equally well for DB.
Screens poorly designed is a scheme issue but poorly coached is not scheme. And I have not claimed E is a great or even good QB coach. But to focus there is about QB performance which has been good and is not scheme.
I agree a 10 win season will be in spite of a struggling offense. You may not agree but I generally believe an offensive is only as good as the 5 lineman.
But since you have repeated said it scheme scheme scheme I will ask again....
What misdirection heavy scheme do you believe can improve an offense with subpar oline play?
quote:
You telling me LSU has had the misfortune of recruiting from the same pool of players every year, and manages to pick shitty offensive linemen, but good defensive linemen? Doesn't compute.
I'm telling you we have not recruited O line well, have had injuries and suspensions that negatively effected those we did recruit. I'm not sure how that is hard to compute. Just because a team recruits good LB does not mean it recruits equally well for RB or good WR equally well for DB.
Screens poorly designed is a scheme issue but poorly coached is not scheme. And I have not claimed E is a great or even good QB coach. But to focus there is about QB performance which has been good and is not scheme.
I agree a 10 win season will be in spite of a struggling offense. You may not agree but I generally believe an offensive is only as good as the 5 lineman.
But since you have repeated said it scheme scheme scheme I will ask again....
What misdirection heavy scheme do you believe can improve an offense with subpar oline play?
Posted on 11/18/18 at 8:47 pm to Bleeding purple
OK. We agree that E isn't a good QB coach. Your words. How about this? Is it a novel concept to have an offensive coordinator who IS a good QB coach? The problem is that our former, and current coach, for some reason, are OK with hiring really good defensive coordinators, but feel the need to hire offensive coordinators they can control. Which is a problem, b/c, Les Miles, and Ed Orgeron ... offensive geniuses they are not.
Orgeron has been head coach now for 2 years. Ensminger has been on staff how long? If you believe the offensive linemen aren't good enough, whose fault is that? Orgeron recruited two JUCO linemen -- Lewis, and Traore. Lewis has been good, Traore hasn't. Traore was the #1 rated JUCO lineman. The coaches aren't putting the offensive players in the best positions to be successful. The stats don't lie.
Orgeron has been head coach now for 2 years. Ensminger has been on staff how long? If you believe the offensive linemen aren't good enough, whose fault is that? Orgeron recruited two JUCO linemen -- Lewis, and Traore. Lewis has been good, Traore hasn't. Traore was the #1 rated JUCO lineman. The coaches aren't putting the offensive players in the best positions to be successful. The stats don't lie.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 9:09 pm to TigerJeff
quote:
Your words.
You don't read so well.
Although I haven't said he is great or good neither have I said he is bad or horrible.
You continually focus on causality and boil it down to scheme. Yet keep giving examples of skills coaching.
I'm open to hearing what positions the coaches or a new independent coordinator could put players in with an improved offensive scheme.
So again
What misdirection heavy scheme do you believe can improve an offense with subpar oline play?
Posted on 11/18/18 at 9:58 pm to Bleeding purple
I’m not a football coach. I don’t get paid a million dollars a year to direct a 90th ranked offense. Teams with much lesser o line talent than LSU have much more success on offense. If the O line is so bad as you say, then design a scheme that minimizes that weakness, and doesn’t magnify it.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 10:10 pm to nola000
I think it is just people are giving their opinion on what the problem is. It all falls on the head coach regardless, but if you say it is definitely just scheme then you change the scheme and it is actually player execution and ability then you wont see an improvement with the changes that you make and vice versa. I personally think it is player ability, execution, and the players mentality that is keeping us from becoming a great team. I also don't know if coach O is capable of fixing that, but I would prefer him to focus his efforts in those areas because I think that will give him the best chance at putting LSU in a position to compete for a championship.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 10:11 pm to TigerJeff
Donavaughn Campbell - 4-star; National rank, 140
Austin Deculus - 4-star; National rank, 48
Saadiq Charles - 4-star; National rank, 262
Toby Weathersby - 4-star, National rank, 103
Garrett Brumfield - 4-star, National rank, 103
Badore Traore - 4-star, National rank, 7
Austin Deculus - 4-star; National rank, 48
Saadiq Charles - 4-star; National rank, 262
Toby Weathersby - 4-star, National rank, 103
Garrett Brumfield - 4-star, National rank, 103
Badore Traore - 4-star, National rank, 7
Posted on 11/18/18 at 10:17 pm to TigerJeff
Dare Rosenthal, 4-star, national rank 327
Chasen Hines, 4-star, National rank 243
Chasen Hines, 4-star, National rank 243
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