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re: Orgeron v Herman: biggest game of their careers?
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:34 am to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:34 am to RogerTheShrubber
Where did I say Texas was not talented? Did Texas not fire Strong and hire Herman after the KU loss?
0
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:35 am to RogerTheShrubber
Texas won less than .500 3 years on a ROW. They were bad. Very bad.
Fine if we want to claim they had SOME talent, but not on lsus level at all.
Plus, I thought even bad coaches like Les could win based on talent alone. Apparently Strong couldn't.
Fine if we want to claim they had SOME talent, but not on lsus level at all.
Plus, I thought even bad coaches like Les could win based on talent alone. Apparently Strong couldn't.
This post was edited on 8/20/19 at 9:37 am
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:36 am to SportTiger1
quote:
They were bad. Very bad.
It was cultural. They were soft as hell, but very very talented
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:39 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Texas is top ten of composite talent ratings. They were top 15 talent when Herman walked on campus.
I guess that speaks to how much of an absolute wreck that team was culturally before they got there. He had to send a few people away from that program, something that people on this board laughed at him about. People said that players didn't want to play for him or have to make out with him. I remember the comments.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:40 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
It was cultural. They were soft as hell, but very very talented
Strong had a few good recruiting classes for Herman to build on at least.
Mack was on autopilot towards the end of his tenure. He would sign his class on junior day and then start looking to the next year. In the 2018 draft, Texas had their first O-linemen taken in a decade. Think how insane that is for a second.
They were awful in the trenches when Strong took over. They were a complete rebuild and strong wasn’t the guy for the job.
This post was edited on 8/20/19 at 9:44 am
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:46 am to SportTiger1
quote:
Plus, I thought even bad coaches like Les could win based on talent alone. Apparently Strong couldn't.
In a weaker conference mind you.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:54 am to SportTiger1
quote:
Plus, I thought even bad coaches like Les could win based on talent alone. Apparently Strong couldn't.
Les did win. Not sure where this "talent alone" stuff started. Even talented teams can quit.
Strong never had booster support which is one reason the moral there was so low.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 9:59 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Strong never had booster support which is one reason the moral there was so low.
This is some sort of causation correlation logical fallacy.
Strong did not have booster support (which is sad because it was definitely racially charged) but also, Strong straight up isn't that good of a head coach. He's a great DC, but was never ready for the big leagues and was wayyy in over his head taking this job. This is further evidenced by how his career at USF has gone so far. The only reason he still has a job there is because USF is such a low profile job.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 10:03 am to Ya Mar Chase
quote:
This is some sort of causation correlation logical fallacy.
No, you just refuse to accept reality
Miles lost support post 2014, and we saw a deterioration when the team faced adversity. It had little to do with talent.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 10:18 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Miles lost support post 2014
no, he didn't. Anyone with a semi-functioning brain knew that LSU dealt with massive attrition in 2012 and 2013, and that in 2014 they brought in a very talented, but very young class. A lot of people in the spring of 2014 were already predicting that LSU would be going to the playoffs in 2016.
LSU took its lumps in 2014 but no one called for Miles' head. In fact, the only thing I could find from "post 2014" is this article where apparently Michigan made another run at Les.
LINK
Miles didn't come under fire til the infamous 3 game losing streak in 2015.
This post was edited on 8/20/19 at 10:19 am
Posted on 8/20/19 at 10:43 am to paper tiger
I live in Texas. Many UT fans still on fence with ?Herman. He had some success at UH but so did other coaches (Sumlin) only to disappoint on bigger stage, and Herman has had several missteps. I think LSU got the better end of the deal.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 10:51 am to paper tiger
neither coach will be on the hot seat if they lose the game.
That's just nonsense.
That's just nonsense.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 11:07 am to basiletiger
quote:
neither coach will be on the hot seat if they lose the game.
That's just nonsense.
Well that's not what I wrote, but okay.
Neither of these coaches will be on their AD's hot seat for losing a game against a top ten team.
But the coach who loses this game will find his seat a lot warmer from a fan's perspective. I don't even think that is controversial to say.
Rtaher than titling my original post that this was the biggest game of their respective careers, I should have written the game will be a fan referendum on who got the best coach.
I am not saying it should be, I am just calling it like it is. Herman is not a super popular guy at Texas and Orgeron is not popular among a lot of LSU fans.
Both coaches earned some equity with their detractors last year by putting together good seasons.
The coach that wins this game will have laurels put in is head and a huge bump in his fan base popularity. The losing coach is going to get absolutely hammered by those fans who were on the fence.
The media will join in too. Watch what happens after the game. for many, this game absolutely is a referendum on who got the best hire.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 11:30 am to paper tiger
quote:
But the coach who loses this game will find his seat a lot warmer from a fan's perspective. I don't even think that is controversial to say.
no they won't. It is week 2. It is two top 10 teams squaring off.
quote:
I should have written the game will be a fan referendum on who got the best coach.
so lets just say for the sake of playing devil's advocate, that these coaches split the home and home 1-1. Who got the best coach???
quote:
I am not saying it should be, I am just calling it like it is.
no, you are expressing an opinion and trying to pass it off as a fact.
quote:
Herman is not a super popular guy at Texas and Orgeron is not popular among a lot of LSU fans.
both coaches got extensions this offseason. Now you are just making stuff up.
quote:
The media will join in too. Watch what happens after the game. for many, this game absolutely is a referendum on who got the best hire.
the media is the only entity that will push this silly narrative, and gullible fans such as yourself will lap it up. Congrats on being a sheep.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 11:39 am to Ya Mar Chase
I never get this part of tiger rant where fellow LSU fans hurl insults at each other over respectfully stated opinions.
I know how it works, I post on here. It just would not occur to me to call a guy a sheep or some of the many other insults I have gotten.
It doesn't bother me so much. Its just some guy I dont know on the internet. I just don't get it.
And I am not making it up at all that Herman and Oregeon both have large parts of their fan base who dont like them. Really? You think that is made up?
I am in Austin all the time, their AD who hired Herman is a very good friend of mine. Herman has his detractors there, waiting to jump his butt if he loses this game.
And how can anyone who reads this board not know how LSU fans are divided over Orgeron.
But heck, maybe you are right. Its just debate before the game. I just dont get why people get so angry and do all the name calling.
I know how it works, I post on here. It just would not occur to me to call a guy a sheep or some of the many other insults I have gotten.
It doesn't bother me so much. Its just some guy I dont know on the internet. I just don't get it.
And I am not making it up at all that Herman and Oregeon both have large parts of their fan base who dont like them. Really? You think that is made up?
I am in Austin all the time, their AD who hired Herman is a very good friend of mine. Herman has his detractors there, waiting to jump his butt if he loses this game.
And how can anyone who reads this board not know how LSU fans are divided over Orgeron.
But heck, maybe you are right. Its just debate before the game. I just dont get why people get so angry and do all the name calling.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 11:50 am to paper tiger
Ok I am sorry for calling you a sheep. It's the fact that you are so adamant in the face of these facts that this game has some sort of earth shattering permanent ripple effect that the loser will be stained with this black mark on their resume that will be impossible to overcome. The loser literally gets a shot at redemption 12 months from now. Both coaches just got extensions, that seems to me like that strengthens job security, not weakens it. It is very early in the season, before either team begins conference play. There is simply too much football left to be played to claim that the loser will have dug themselves this hole that will be too deep to climb out of in the first week of september when theres 10 games left on each of their schedules.
Also, you are relying on anecdotal evidence. Just because you're in Austin all the time and the "AD who hired Herman is a very good friend of mine" does not actually make it a fact that Herman is unpopular. Also, you put entirely too much weight on the opinion of people on here. This is a message board. Very few casual fans sign onto message boards to talk about their team. That is reserved for the 5-10% of crazy die hard fans who want/need a place to talk LSU football on the daily. I'd imagine that is the same for Texas, and any other P5 program. The genpop fanbase at large has opinions that are by and large not those reflected by a (very) vocal minority online.
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I just think you are grossly exaggerating the stakes of the game. Is it a huge game? Absolutely. These two programs have a combined 7 national titles, 45 conference titles, and 1700 wins. This isn't Akron vs. Kent State. Its freakin LSU and Texas. But having said that, these coaches will not be forever remembered by the outcome of these games. Their legacy will each extend far beyond one game.
Also, you are relying on anecdotal evidence. Just because you're in Austin all the time and the "AD who hired Herman is a very good friend of mine" does not actually make it a fact that Herman is unpopular. Also, you put entirely too much weight on the opinion of people on here. This is a message board. Very few casual fans sign onto message boards to talk about their team. That is reserved for the 5-10% of crazy die hard fans who want/need a place to talk LSU football on the daily. I'd imagine that is the same for Texas, and any other P5 program. The genpop fanbase at large has opinions that are by and large not those reflected by a (very) vocal minority online.
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I just think you are grossly exaggerating the stakes of the game. Is it a huge game? Absolutely. These two programs have a combined 7 national titles, 45 conference titles, and 1700 wins. This isn't Akron vs. Kent State. Its freakin LSU and Texas. But having said that, these coaches will not be forever remembered by the outcome of these games. Their legacy will each extend far beyond one game.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 12:24 pm to SportTiger1
quote:
The two teams are not, and we're not equal as of December 2016. Herman has done about the same at this point, but started with less to begin with.
This was not my point nor was it ever my point, y'all are just raising strawmen to create a new argument, here are the FACTS:
When both teams play in a few weeks, they'll (likely) still be ranked top ten with early national title implications
quote:
That's why you can't use this one game as a microcosm of thier tenures
Won't use it for Herman, Herman could care less about this in the context of Orgeron and November 2016 he was never coming to LSU anyway unless LSU emptied the bank for him, he was set on returning to his alma mater. The only way this affects Herman is the humiliation of his team losing AT HOME to a team coached by a vastly inferior HC LSU had to settle for because they're incompetent and even he can overcome that if he wins the Big 12 this season and all that. As for O and the O-Herman dynamic with how divided LSU fans are over him, not too big a stretch to surmise his team defeating a team coached by the superior coach all LSU fans wanted in a big early-season game on the road could persuade some O skeptics to accept him at least or give him a fair chance.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 12:43 pm to SoulBrotha91
quote:
As for O and the O-Herman dynamic with how divided LSU fans are over him, not too big a stretch to surmise his team defeating a team coached by the superior coach all LSU fans wanted in a big early-season game on the road could persuade some O skeptics to accept him at least or give him a fair chance.
This is where your shtick has worn thin. I think your attempt to claim "Orgeron Skeptic" and also this ridiculous sentiment (skeptics will have to conclude that this game means a lot if Orgeron wins it in terms of which is the better coach) is where you went a bit too far.
Essentially you've attempted to carve out the position of "Common Sense Orgeron Skepticism."
Problem is you've picked the wrong hill on which to die. Nearly everyone you're arguing with in this thread is considered the worst of the worst by Orgeron apologists. And nearly every one of us to a poster has come out and said that it would be ridiculous to claim that Herman is the better coach if Texas beats LSU ins few weeks. Now...why would we do that? It's not because most of us don't think Herman is the superior coach. I surely do. But it's because it's a crazy thing to suggest...that one game, gone either way, somehow tells us something useful about either coach in comparison to the other. If we're so terrible and just waiting to hammer the guy for anything, why not hope that we get to do that? Why defend him before hand and suggest that we won't start threads about how, "See...we hired the wrong guy!!!" based on the one game? As for the "fair chance" thing...again, too far. It's obvious with that line. Orgeron has the exact same chance any and all coaches that followed Les Miles have. Win at or better than the guy you replaced...the guy we fired to hire you. Miles averaged 10 wins a season, won 2 SEC titles, a NC and appeared in a second and third SECCG respectively. So far, Orgeron has one 10 win season under his belt and no hardware. As soon as he starts to equal and then surpass the guy we fired to hire him he'll get all the respect and accolades he can handle. Until then, he's not as accomplished as the guy we fired.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 1:52 pm to Ya Mar Chase
quote:
there is no rule that says that the head to head winner gets the nod. The playoff committee has very purposefully not ever written down any strict criteria for who gets in and who does not.
No one said anything about any written down rules. It's an appeal to common sense.
Posted on 8/20/19 at 2:07 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
I think your attempt to claim "Orgeron Skeptic" and also this ridiculous sentiment (skeptics will have to conclude that this game means a lot if Orgeron wins it in terms of which is the better coach) is where you went a bit too far.
So you guys have gotten together and formed rules, that's awesome... we really need the Negas all to be on the same page here..
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