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re: Orgeron v Herman: biggest game of their careers?
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:05 pm to Alt26
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:05 pm to Alt26
quote:
He's not leaving if he loses the game or shutting down the season. But inside he absolutely wants to prove the critics were wrong when they say Herman should have been the HC or that O was simply just a (weak) consolation prize that is ONLY the HC because Herman turned LSU down.
I'm saying if he does frame it that way, and winning it would somehow prove to himself that he does deserve to be there, than losing it would mean the opposite, that he is that weak consolation prize, right? What could he possibly do with that going forward?
I just don't see the point in investing that much into the outcome of a single game. In football, it can just not be your night and you're going to invest your worth in the outcome?
0
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:17 pm to paper tiger
Nope
Bama and OU are far more important
Bama and OU are far more important
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:20 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
I'm as big an Orgeron critic as exists here and agree he should never have even been CONSIDERED for this job...but I'd never, in a million years, say that a loss to Texas this year proves that Herman is automatically the better coach.
I'm not saying I don't think that...I absolutely do think that already. But a loss would not add to that. One game is just that...one game. Likewise, if LSU wins it, to suggest that Orgeron is therefore the better of the two is an asinine assumption to draw from one game played.
I'd like to think no one would do it...but we all know we're in store for it. The hook is just way too shiny to avoid.
Sadly, because I want LSU to win, I'm actually hoping to read the usual suspects here talking out of their asses about how this automatically makes Orgeron better!
Catch to your post is
quote:
say that a loss to Texas this year proves that Herman is automatically the better coach.
quote:
Likewise, if LSU wins it, to suggest that Orgeron is therefore the better of the two is an asinine assumption to draw from one game played.
that's not actually the bottomline for this issue, the bottomline is how much O winning his first matchup against Herman (the coach EVERY LSU FAN WANTED back in 2016 and inarguably considered superior to O) goes to his credibility with O skeptics and in-house detractors in terms of them accepting him and holding him in good graces. Are you seriously making the argument that LSU defeating HERMAN'S 10th RANKED Texas team ON THE ROAD IN HIS HOUSE the first O-Herman matchup would not make a semblance of difference in O skeptics' minds, at least just a sliver? How stubborn are you people? Geez, he'd only have defeated the guy EVERY LSU FAN WANTED AND LOST THEIR MINDS OVER their first ever matchup, incorrigible.
This post was edited on 8/19/19 at 4:23 pm
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:24 pm to paper tiger
Big game? Yes. Biggest game? No.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:26 pm to SoulBrotha91
quote:
that's not actually the bottomline for this issue, the bottomline is how much O winning his first matchup against Herman (the coach EVERY LSU FAN WANTED back in 2016 and inarguably considered superior to O) goes to his credibility with O skeptics and in-house detractors in terms of them accepting him and holding him in good graces
And if he goes to Tuscaloosa and craps the bed again those same skeptics will be as loud as ever. That tells you that Bama's still the much bigger game.
If you flip it, he loses Texas and beats Bama, everyone will be much more forgiving, without a doubt.
This post was edited on 8/19/19 at 4:27 pm
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:29 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
And if he goes to Tuscaloosa and craps the bed again those same skeptics will be as loud as ever. That tells you that Bama's still the much bigger game.
We can agree to disagree on the magnitude of LSU-Bama in the context of O, we win all our games except Bama this season I'm completely fine with that as that denotes we exceeded what we did last year. Obviously I want us to beat Bama and think we possess a great chance to do it this year despite we play them on the road in Tuscaloosa but 11-1 aint bad.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:32 pm to SoulBrotha91
Would love to see this domination like the Louisville bowl game a few years ago when we played L.Jackson. I don't want it to even be close.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:54 pm to paper tiger
The biggest game of Os career was last year because had he lost to Miami and auburn his arse was grass
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:54 pm to SoulBrotha91
quote:
Are you seriously making the argument that LSU defeating HERMAN'S 10th RANKED Texas team ON THE ROAD IN HIS HOUSE the first O-Herman matchup would not make a semblance of difference in O skeptics' minds, at least just a sliver?
What did I say first?
quote:
I'm as big an Orgeron critic as exists here and agree he should never have even been CONSIDERED for this job...but I'd never, in a million years, say that a loss to Texas this year proves that Herman is automatically the better coach.
I'm not saying I don't think that...I absolutely do think that already. But a loss would not add to that. One game is just that...one game. Likewise, if LSU wins it, to suggest that Orgeron is therefore the better of the two is an asinine assumption to draw from one game played.
So yes...that's EXACTLY what I'm saying...as a skeptic. As badly as I'd like LSU to win, to suggest that I'd suddenly rethink my views on Orgeron as LSU's head coach merely because of one win against the guy who ought to have been the guy here seems crazy and shortsighted. So many things go into a team winning or losing a game...to pretend it's some personal referendum on each head coach makes no sense to me.
quote:
How stubborn are you people?
Stubborn, or intellectually honest? Put it this way...say we beat Texas and we skeptics suddenly announce in unison that we were entirely wrong and Ed Orgeron is twice the coach Tom Herman is. Then, the 2019 season plays out and we go 7-5 and Texas goes 11-1. Is Orgeron still better? Is Herman still worse? What did that win REALLY tell anyone, other than that on that day LSU beat Texas?
I'm not suggesting wins will not alter everyone's opinion of the man...just that ONE WIN will not do it. MANY wins piled up will.
BTW...congrats on the alter.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 4:59 pm to SoulBrotha91
quote:
Are you seriously making the argument that LSU defeating HERMAN'S 10th RANKED Texas team ON THE ROAD IN HIS HOUSE the first O-Herman matchup would not make a semblance of difference in O skeptics' minds,
Skeptics? Maybe a few.
Those who have already made up their minds and dislike him? They'll probably dislike him even more. Those people cannot be turned.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 5:01 pm to NawlinsTiger9
No, No, No - O’s entire future does not depend on this game. It is his biggest game for personal reasons, however
Posted on 8/19/19 at 5:40 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Both teams are severely overrated to start the season, so it will be interesting to watch from that vantage point. In the end, it has no bearing on whether O deserved the job or not.
The facts are that he did not in any way shape or form deserve it. He was undeservedly given the position out of spite by the former AD and LSU is stuck with him. Hopefully he shows consistency, but I don't know that we will see it.
If LSU is going to do anything under O, it would be this year.
The facts are that he did not in any way shape or form deserve it. He was undeservedly given the position out of spite by the former AD and LSU is stuck with him. Hopefully he shows consistency, but I don't know that we will see it.
If LSU is going to do anything under O, it would be this year.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 5:43 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Both teams are severely overrated to start the season,
Who are you putting abov them?
Posted on 8/19/19 at 6:14 pm to paper tiger
JFC.... no
Posted on 8/19/19 at 6:19 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
as a skeptic
Posted on 8/19/19 at 6:55 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
So yes...that's EXACTLY what I'm saying...as a skeptic. As badly as I'd like LSU to win, to suggest that I'd suddenly rethink my views on Orgeron as LSU's head coach merely because of one win against the guy who ought to have been the guy here seems crazy and shortsighted.
All my question entailed was whether it would make a semblance of difference in their minds, not a full-blown conversion, I'm aware it's only one game but it has a particularly special meaning as it's the first O-Herman matchup with the memories of November 2016 still fresh in everyone's minds and the maintained antipathy to O by his in-house skeptics. I would assume these factors would translate to slightly moving the needle logically.
quote:
Stubborn, or intellectually honest?
Intellectually honest entails commending O for defeating a unanimously-considered superior coach IN HIS HOUSE and slightly modifying one's skeptical stance towards him just a sliver in the positive. Stubborn entails what you're indicating regardless of the fact his team defeats a RANKED team coached by a GUY EVERYONE WANTED FOR LSU ON THE ROAD, Coach O could literally play the game himself and defeat Texas in Austin and y'all still wouldn't give him any credit, moving the goalposts ever further.
quote:
say we beat Texas and we skeptics suddenly announce in unison that we were entirely wrong and Ed Orgeron is twice the coach Tom Herman is.
That's not the bottomline of this issue, it's not about who's the superior coach it's about the skeptics at least making progress to accept O in a positive way
quote:
I'm not suggesting wins will not alter everyone's opinion of the man...just that ONE WIN will not do it. MANY wins piled up will.
O's piled up MANY wins the last couple of years
Posted on 8/19/19 at 6:59 pm to paper tiger
old people make long posts that could be summed up in a sentence or two.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 7:38 pm to SoulBrotha91
quote:
Intellectually honest entails commending O for defeating a unanimously-considered superior coach IN HIS HOUSE and slightly modifying one's skeptical stance towards him just a sliver in the positive. Stubborn entails what you're indicating regardless of the fact his team defeats a RANKED team coached by a GUY EVERYONE WANTED FOR LSU ON THE ROAD, Coach O could literally play the game himself and defeat Texas in Austin and y'all still wouldn't give him any credit, moving the goalposts ever further.
If we win, he gets credit for a win, and that's reflected in the win-loss column. Why do you crave more than that? Why are you making this more than just another win? We need 11-12 of them to get to the playoffs, so that's how important it is, it's 1/12 of the goal this regular season.
Or are you stuck on this idea that we need to affirm him as the superior coach if we win vs Texas? If so, we need state that Saban, Mullen, Neal Brown, Brian Kelly, and Jimbo Fisher all are better than our guy, if we're going to distill a coach's standing based on who he beat. Shark Fricker might be better than him since he's 1-1 vs him.
I don't know why some of you are so fixated on validation for this guy.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 7:51 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Why do you crave more than that?
It's quite simple: dude's incurred a tremendous amount of skepticism and doubt since Alleva elevated him to full-time HC, probably more than even Les Miles himself, beating the GUY EVERYONE WANTED FOR LSU AND WENT CRAZY OVER would logically diminish some of that doubt and persuade O skeptics (of which I am a part) to convey at least a sliver of credibility and acceptance to him as LSU head coach (in light that it's only one game in a 12-game season).
quote:
Why are you making this more than just another win?
Not all games are created equal and, as I stated before, this game has a particularly special meaning because it's O and Herman
quote:
Or are you stuck on this idea that we need to affirm him as the superior coach if we win vs Texas? If so, we need state that Saban, Mullen, Neal Brown, Brian Kelly, and Jimbo Fisher all are better than our guy, if we're going to distill a coach's standing based on who he beat. Shark Fricker might be better than him since he's 1-1 vs him.
My point reflects OP, this is a tremendous opportunity for O if he defeats the guy every LSU fan wanted and (correctly) considers the superior coach so as to give him some credibility as LSU's head coach in the minds of in-house skeptics. Would persuade me a sliver.
quote:
I don't know why some of you are so fixated on validation for this guy.
Really all the outrage the in-house skeptics express at him that borders on a sort of derangement syndrome. I'm an O skeptic but I'm more of a skeptic who wants to be convinced of one's validity not someone who goes around bashing O like my life depends on it.
Posted on 8/19/19 at 7:55 pm to Geauxgurt
So LSU finished 6th last year and has a better team this year... but LSU is overrated. How do youmform that conclusion
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