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Message
Muscadine questions
Posted on 6/26/23 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 6/26/23 at 12:22 pm
I asked this on the food and drink board but this appears to be the better board for the topic.
I am considering planting two muscadine vines next year. My goal is homemade wine production. I prefer red wine in general, so I believe I'd probably select Noble or Ison (or maybe one of each). But I've been into white wine lately, so Carlos is another option.
For the record, I've never made wine, but I have a homemade wine starter kit coming soon, so by the time I have grapes (if I plant them), I should have some knowledge of the winemaking process.
I have been doing research and probably construct a trellis late next spring. I will probably do a single wire simply because I've read it's best for humid, wetter environments, which is where I live. I am interested in a double/Geneva style trellis for the increased production though. I really have room for only two 20' trellises. Other parts of my yard get too wet and I've read muscadines, and all grapes for that matter, do not like wet soil.
Does anyone here grow muscadines for wine? I welcome all general tips and other helpful information.
I am considering planting two muscadine vines next year. My goal is homemade wine production. I prefer red wine in general, so I believe I'd probably select Noble or Ison (or maybe one of each). But I've been into white wine lately, so Carlos is another option.
For the record, I've never made wine, but I have a homemade wine starter kit coming soon, so by the time I have grapes (if I plant them), I should have some knowledge of the winemaking process.
I have been doing research and probably construct a trellis late next spring. I will probably do a single wire simply because I've read it's best for humid, wetter environments, which is where I live. I am interested in a double/Geneva style trellis for the increased production though. I really have room for only two 20' trellises. Other parts of my yard get too wet and I've read muscadines, and all grapes for that matter, do not like wet soil.
Does anyone here grow muscadines for wine? I welcome all general tips and other helpful information.
10
Posted on 6/26/23 at 12:52 pm to Tornado Alley
If you didn't plant yet then you have quite some time before you produce enough grapes to make a batch of wine. This year's berries will be ready in a couple months. If you are planting next year you are probably 3-4 years out from setting enough for a gallon of wine.
You should buy some grapes from the store to do a test run on winemaking to learn the process.
FYI: White wine and red wine use the exact same grapes. the skin is removed to make white wine. Muscadines have some pretty bold tannins in their skin.
Looking back I should have planted mine closer so that they would intermingle better. Also, plant your female to the north of your male vine. Those spring winds from the south can help with pollination.
Black beauty and cowart are two purple grapes that do well together. Noble sets a lot of fruit but they aren't as sweet as black beauty in my experience.
ETA: Also, buy a hygrometer before you start making wine and learn to use it.
You should buy some grapes from the store to do a test run on winemaking to learn the process.
FYI: White wine and red wine use the exact same grapes. the skin is removed to make white wine. Muscadines have some pretty bold tannins in their skin.
Looking back I should have planted mine closer so that they would intermingle better. Also, plant your female to the north of your male vine. Those spring winds from the south can help with pollination.
Black beauty and cowart are two purple grapes that do well together. Noble sets a lot of fruit but they aren't as sweet as black beauty in my experience.
ETA: Also, buy a hygrometer before you start making wine and learn to use it.
This post was edited on 6/26/23 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 6/26/23 at 12:59 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:
Does anyone here grow muscadines for wine? I welcome all general tips and other helpful information.
If you call Ison's nursery they're great about giving advice, they might suggest a variety that's best for winemaking.
I have a couple of vines and my Dad has 10 or 15. I started mine last year from cuttings off of his plants. I think I have Pineapple and Carlos, hopefully they produce this year.
quote:
I will probably do a single wire simply because I've read it's best for humid, wetter environments, which is where I live. I am interested in a double/Geneva style trellis for the increased production though.
This is how my dad has his set up. He has a line of 4x4s with a wire running along the top. Each 4x4 has a vine at the base and it splits in both directions at the top.
8 or 9 years ago my ex and I took winemaking classes at a local homebrew store. I asked the guy teaching the class what he thought about muscadines and he said they make mediocre wine at best. I don't think they have a high enough sugar content and then there's some other issues that I don't remember. I don't really have a palate for wine, though so I can't really tell a good wine from a bad. I've had some muscadine wines that other folks have made that I thought were great.
If there's a local homebrew store in your area check and see if they have winemaking classes. You could also check if there are any homebrew/winemaking clubs near you. I only made one batch of wine as part of that class but I did homebrew for close to decade and it's really satisfying to get drunk off of alcohol you produced yourself.
Posted on 6/26/23 at 1:24 pm to TheBoo
quote:
If you didn't plant yet then you have quite some time before you produce enough grapes to make a batch of wine. This year's berries will be ready in a couple months. If you are planting next year you are probably 3-4 years out from setting enough for a gallon of wine.
I do not plan on planting until spring 2024 and I realize it'll be a few years until I can harvest enough to make wine.
quote:
You should buy some grapes from the store to do a test run on winemaking to learn the process.
Agreed. I plan to do whatever wine comes with the kit and then make it out of 100% unconcentrated muscadine juice.
quote:
Looking back I should have planted mine closer so that they would intermingle better. Also, plant your female to the north of your male vine. Those spring winds from the south can help with pollination.
I've only been looking into self-fertile cultivars that are highly vigorous, such as Noble, Ison, and Carlos. I plan to plant them about 20' apart in the middle of the two trellis sections I have.
quote:
Black beauty and cowart are two purple grapes that do well together. Noble sets a lot of fruit but they aren't as sweet as black beauty in my experience.
Thank you for this. My goal is to produce a "dryer" muscadine wine that's easy to drink, so I'll probably go with the Noble unless the folks at Ison recommend something different.
This post was edited on 6/26/23 at 1:25 pm
Posted on 6/26/23 at 1:27 pm to Loup
quote:
If you call Ison's nursery they're great about giving advice, they might suggest a variety that's best for winemaking.
Thank you.
Posted on 6/26/23 at 2:28 pm to Tornado Alley
I have a couple Carlos vines. They got cut back and replanted in a move a few years ago and have been cut back every year awaiting another move. But after 3 years of growing, I would have one harvest and collect over 30lbs of Muscadines. There were probably py just as many that hit the ground before I picked them.
Wine is pretty good.
You should order some bottles from Tsali Notch vineyard. They have everything from dry to very sweet and its all Muscatine wine. It is all very good, imo. It would be a good starting point on what type of wine you think you might like to produce.
Wine is pretty good.
You should order some bottles from Tsali Notch vineyard. They have everything from dry to very sweet and its all Muscatine wine. It is all very good, imo. It would be a good starting point on what type of wine you think you might like to produce.
Posted on 6/26/23 at 2:39 pm to Tornado Alley
Sorry I was thinking Supreme, not Noble. Females will have a higher sugar content than complete flower grapes naturally.
Regarding the productivity of the different cultivars, my female vine has always produced much more than my complete flower, both in quantity and size.
With the bold tannins and lower sugar content grapes you are looking at your wine may be TOO dry and hard to drink. If you back sweeten, back sweeten with honey.
Regarding the productivity of the different cultivars, my female vine has always produced much more than my complete flower, both in quantity and size.
With the bold tannins and lower sugar content grapes you are looking at your wine may be TOO dry and hard to drink. If you back sweeten, back sweeten with honey.
This post was edited on 6/26/23 at 2:41 pm
Posted on 6/26/23 at 2:50 pm to Tornado Alley
I have several wild vines on my property that i pick from. Been trial and error making wine with them. Also buy a cork press that has a handle. Pushing the cork in by hand and having the bottle explode is a great way to cut fingers to the bone and getting a couple dozen stitches.
Posted on 6/26/23 at 2:57 pm to TheBoo
quote:
Sorry I was thinking Supreme, not Noble. Females will have a higher sugar content than complete flower grapes naturally.
Regarding the productivity of the different cultivars, my female vine has always produced much more than my complete flower, both in quantity and size.
With the bold tannins and lower sugar content grapes you are looking at your wine may be TOO dry and hard to drink. If you back sweeten, back sweeten with honey.
What self-fertilizing and fertilizing cultivars do you have?
I would love to sweeten/backsweeten with local honey.
Posted on 6/26/23 at 3:17 pm to Deek
quote:
I have several wild vines on my property that i pick from. Been trial and error making wine with them. Also buy a cork press that has a handle. Pushing the cork in by hand and having the bottle explode is a great way to cut fingers to the bone and getting a couple dozen stitches.
Gonna use flip-top and screw-top bottles
Posted on 6/26/23 at 4:55 pm to Tornado Alley
My pollinator is a Triumph, which is a bronze grape.
Admittedly I haven't made muscadine wine as I haven't made enough to make a batch yet, between my kid eating a large portion off the vine, and freezes and storms impacting my yield.
I have made blackberry wine though. My goal was a dryer wine like what you are seeking. I'm not a fan of a sweet desert wine, which is what you typically find in homemade wines. When I made it it was too dry to drink, but I back sweetened it with a mixture of raw cane sugar and honey and it turned out amazing. Honey adds more complexity to the taste than just sugar. It came out dry with high tannins and acidity but with just enough sweetness to bring out the flavor. It's a little stout though, the alcohol is approx.14.5%. Time in the bottle also helps a lot to smooth out the tannins a bit. We drank a bottle every few months for bout a year, and we noticed that the later bottles were smoother. I have two bottles left that have been locked in my bar for about 3 years now. My wife won't let me open them until the right special occasion comes along.
Admittedly I haven't made muscadine wine as I haven't made enough to make a batch yet, between my kid eating a large portion off the vine, and freezes and storms impacting my yield.
I have made blackberry wine though. My goal was a dryer wine like what you are seeking. I'm not a fan of a sweet desert wine, which is what you typically find in homemade wines. When I made it it was too dry to drink, but I back sweetened it with a mixture of raw cane sugar and honey and it turned out amazing. Honey adds more complexity to the taste than just sugar. It came out dry with high tannins and acidity but with just enough sweetness to bring out the flavor. It's a little stout though, the alcohol is approx.14.5%. Time in the bottle also helps a lot to smooth out the tannins a bit. We drank a bottle every few months for bout a year, and we noticed that the later bottles were smoother. I have two bottles left that have been locked in my bar for about 3 years now. My wife won't let me open them until the right special occasion comes along.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 8:02 am to Tornado Alley
quote:
I am interested in a double/Geneva style trellis for the increased production though. I really have room for only two 20' trellises.
The setup I use allows me to plant 4 vines in an 11x11 area. I used galvanized fence posts and runners for support along with 9 gauge wire for the vine to hang on. I’ve got 12 vines right now, but I’d have to go look them all up to see exactly what they are. I make jelly, eat them fresh, and generally just give them away to friends that like them.
I run wires on diagonal from posts to hang vines on as well as over my runners. I set my wire ate 64” above the ground. Easy to stand and pick at that height and I can ride my mower underneath it.
An example of how I ran my vines on the wires. Roughly 11ft from post to post and 16ft on the diagonal.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 8:22 am to TheBoo
quote:
FYI: White wine and red wine use the exact same grapes. the skin is removed to make white wine.
I really don’t think that’s accurate
This post was edited on 6/27/23 at 9:28 am
Posted on 6/27/23 at 8:46 am to bbvdd
quote:
FYI: White wine and red wine use the exact same grapes. the skin is removed to make white wine.
I really don’t think that’s accurate
It's not accurate, but I don't want to be argumentative in a thread where I'm asking for help.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 9:19 am to Tornado Alley
I planted 7 this spring/late winter.
2 Cowarts
2 Scuppernong - Female
2 Supremes - Female
1 Carlos
Waiting for a Ruby Crisp for that 8th spot
I have two 80’ rows 8-10’ apart (don’t remember which)
My females are in the middle with my males on the ends
I did the single wired trellis using 9awg wire chest high, 5-6” wooden corner posts, t-posts for support.
12awg wire knee high for irrigation support.
2 - .5gph drip emitters one on either side
I fertilize twice a month as advised by Isons. 1st day of the month with 12-10-10 fertilizer and on the 15th with Calcium Nitrate.
The most important thing that I learned was to ensure that the vines have support to attach to other than the wire. I used 5’ long bamboo stakes, that seems to work great. Also, I have the blue-x plant shelters. Will use them Until next spring.
Isons has a ton of info, kinfolk Farms on YouTube does as well.
First year is all about getting your vine to the ends of the wire. Mine are planted in the middle (@10’) with two runners.
I have a Mayhaw orchard with 150ish trees and I love growing these Muscadines. They grow fast and it’s fun to do for me. They will provide a ton of fruit, I’m hearing a few to several hundred pounds per vine.
Good luck!
2 Cowarts
2 Scuppernong - Female
2 Supremes - Female
1 Carlos
Waiting for a Ruby Crisp for that 8th spot
I have two 80’ rows 8-10’ apart (don’t remember which)
My females are in the middle with my males on the ends
I did the single wired trellis using 9awg wire chest high, 5-6” wooden corner posts, t-posts for support.
12awg wire knee high for irrigation support.
2 - .5gph drip emitters one on either side
I fertilize twice a month as advised by Isons. 1st day of the month with 12-10-10 fertilizer and on the 15th with Calcium Nitrate.
The most important thing that I learned was to ensure that the vines have support to attach to other than the wire. I used 5’ long bamboo stakes, that seems to work great. Also, I have the blue-x plant shelters. Will use them Until next spring.
Isons has a ton of info, kinfolk Farms on YouTube does as well.
First year is all about getting your vine to the ends of the wire. Mine are planted in the middle (@10’) with two runners.
I have a Mayhaw orchard with 150ish trees and I love growing these Muscadines. They grow fast and it’s fun to do for me. They will provide a ton of fruit, I’m hearing a few to several hundred pounds per vine.
Good luck!
Posted on 6/27/23 at 9:29 am to Tornado Alley
quote:
thread where I'm asking for help
I wish I had some knowledge to give on the subject but I have none.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 9:54 am to bbvdd
Is there a way to find out what variety I have growing in my tree line? Between the muscadine vines, blackberries, beauty berry, and honeysuckle, I understand why deer are always around.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:03 am to Tornado Alley
quote:
FYI: White wine and red wine use the exact same grapes. the skin is removed to make white wine.
I really don’t think that’s accurate
It's not accurate, but I don't want to be argumentative in a thread where I'm asking for help.
There are white wines made from white grapes, and there are white wines made from red or black grapes. Pinot Grigio, white Tuscans, champagne, rose's and blushes... for example
You seem well versed and very knowledgeable. My comments were obtuse, but it would be worth researching a little into skin contact white vs normal white wine. Good luck on your wine making journey
This post was edited on 6/27/23 at 10:06 am
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:12 am to TheBoo
quote:
There are white wines made from white grapes, and there are white wines made from red or black grapes. Pinot Grigio, white Tuscans, champagne, rose's and blushes... for example
You seem well versed and very knowledgeable. My comments were obtuse, but it would be worth researching a little into skin contact white vs normal white wine. Good luck on your wine making journey
I gotcha brotha. Your commentary is much appreciated. I do not want to turn a thread on this board into an SEC Rant shitshow.
Now, I do like orange wine and I mean I like it a lot. Isn't that when white wine grapes are fermented on the skins for a period of time and then the skins are removed?
Are you aware of any orange muscadine wines?
Posted on 6/27/23 at 11:33 am to Tornado Alley
I have Ison, Darlene (a bronze variety), Summit (a red variety), and Carlos vines. The Ison vines have been far more productive than the Darlene or Summit, and taste better. My Carlos will produce for the first time this year. My brother-in-law has an unknown small dark variety that is probably Noble. It's very productive, and is good for eating or making wine. I have made muscadine wine several years now, and didn't care for dry muscadine wine. Backsweetening seems to bring out the best in muscadine wine, at least that's my observation. I backsweetened with local honey this past year, and most people thought it was quite good. I don't know if I'll use honey next time, though, since it left more sediment in the bottom of the bottles than sugar (I used raw honey, not very filtered).
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