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Started By
Message

The Discordance of Predominant Protestant Thought (for Agnostics).
Posted on 11/7/21 at 8:57 am
Posted on 11/7/21 at 8:57 am
First, let me say that I am not downing anyone's beliefs. But, having over a lifetime observed the vitrial with which certain protestants discredit others, such as Catholics and Orthodox Christians, I put this out there for those truth seekers who are troubled, as I am, by the shallowness and implausibility of the predominant American Protestant theology.
In short, the "once saved, always saved" notion and the Calvinist promotion of "God's elect" are protestant poison pills that obsure the true meaning of scripture and often lead to false salvation.
I believe that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is of the Devil. I believe that the notion of predestination is a discouragement to rational thinkers who see in it an irrational unjust God.
Scripture is an appeal to man's rationality and consciousness. Page after page illustrate right action and right thought, and warn against wrong action and wrong thought. The two tenants mentioned above render the bible, as well as all Christian outreach nonsensical.
God's love for man necessitated that he allow him free will. To do otherwise would have been tantamount to a parent, for the love of their child, prohibiting them from ever leaving the house.
The presence of the Tree of Knowledge is symbolic of God's admonition to man to follow him. But note, the tree is present, because the absence of the tree would mean the absence of free will which would no more acceptable to a loving God than locking a child in their bedroom to "protect" them from the dangers of this world.
So it must be said, that God limits his own authority, thereby limiting his power. He does this out of love.
God's action in the world to save his children is called grace. Grace is not some fairy dust that hijacks the recipient's free will and grants him membership in the exclusive club of the "elect". How unjust and unloving that would be!
It's all explained in the parable of the sower (Mathew 13). The seeds are cast everywhere, but they land on different ground. Some ground is conducive to growth. Some is not. God is the sower. Man is the tiller of the earth.
So ultimately, the predominant Protestant message has devolved into elitist nonsense that rewards the fortunate (elect) and disempowers the outcasts
We're all back in high school and they are the in crowd.
Those of you on the fence, don't believe the lie. It is God's wish that all be saved. Every one. He never created a single soul to be lost.
But this man explains it much better than I can.
LINK
In short, the "once saved, always saved" notion and the Calvinist promotion of "God's elect" are protestant poison pills that obsure the true meaning of scripture and often lead to false salvation.
I believe that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is of the Devil. I believe that the notion of predestination is a discouragement to rational thinkers who see in it an irrational unjust God.
Scripture is an appeal to man's rationality and consciousness. Page after page illustrate right action and right thought, and warn against wrong action and wrong thought. The two tenants mentioned above render the bible, as well as all Christian outreach nonsensical.
God's love for man necessitated that he allow him free will. To do otherwise would have been tantamount to a parent, for the love of their child, prohibiting them from ever leaving the house.
The presence of the Tree of Knowledge is symbolic of God's admonition to man to follow him. But note, the tree is present, because the absence of the tree would mean the absence of free will which would no more acceptable to a loving God than locking a child in their bedroom to "protect" them from the dangers of this world.
So it must be said, that God limits his own authority, thereby limiting his power. He does this out of love.
God's action in the world to save his children is called grace. Grace is not some fairy dust that hijacks the recipient's free will and grants him membership in the exclusive club of the "elect". How unjust and unloving that would be!
It's all explained in the parable of the sower (Mathew 13). The seeds are cast everywhere, but they land on different ground. Some ground is conducive to growth. Some is not. God is the sower. Man is the tiller of the earth.
So ultimately, the predominant Protestant message has devolved into elitist nonsense that rewards the fortunate (elect) and disempowers the outcasts
We're all back in high school and they are the in crowd.
Those of you on the fence, don't believe the lie. It is God's wish that all be saved. Every one. He never created a single soul to be lost.
But this man explains it much better than I can.
LINK
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:04 am to RiverCityTider
quote:I didn't hit the blind link but I suspect that you are correct. I believe it's FooManChoo that is a Calvanist so he can correct you. I don't believe in the elect nor once saved always saved. Baptist do, though. I believe one can absolutely fall from Grace.
But this man explains it much better than I can.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:05 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
I believe that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is of the Devil.
There is a misconception in many circles and even in Baptist churches about this saying.
First, once saved, always saved has become a derogatory term to illustrate the security of the believer. It’s not a security that comes from the faith of the believer, but from Jesus’ promise that he is able to deliver all to the Father in the end who put their trust in him.
It would be much better to phrase it as” we believe that if a person is truly saved, Jesus will be able to keep that person saved until the end, based on his righteousness and faithfulness.
This post was edited on 11/7/21 at 9:08 am
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:06 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Those of you on the fence, don't believe the lie. It is God's wish that all be saved. Every one. He never created a single soul to be lost.
So, God is not sovereign is what you are saying? He is not ALL powerful? So, all souls go to heaven, even Hitler?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:07 am to RiverCityTider
God uses the foolishness of the gospel (from man’s perspective) to save. Rationality will never lead you to a saving faith. Only God can open your eyes to the truth. Once saved, you can see (rationally) how God’s word is truth. To the unsaved it will always be foolishness.
quote:
1 Corinthians 1:22-29 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
This post was edited on 11/7/21 at 9:11 am
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:09 am to BaldEagleHey
Now discuss God’s wishes about murderers and slanderers and such. Pretty sure it says they are guilty and going to hell. Apparently God has a prescriptive and a descriptive will.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:14 am to scottfruget
I’m just here to see if this thread lasts longer than the others.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:17 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
the vitrial with which certain protestants discredit others,
quote:
by the shallowness and implausibility of the predominant American Protestant theology.
I guess you decided you’d try to keep up with them?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:20 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
In short, the "once saved, always saved" notion and the Calvinist promotion of "God's elect" are protestant poison pills that obsure the true meaning of scripture and often lead to false salvation.
Not in the top 100 issues the church is facing.
Didn’t make it past that paragraph.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:22 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
shallowness and implausibility of the predominant American Protestant theology.
You don't think it's a little bizarre to take this accusatory tone about elitism while writing off centuries of in depth and good-faith reformed debate about original sin, pelagianism, etc. using these tropes?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:22 am to scottfruget
quote:
Now discuss God’s wishes about murderers and slanderers and such. Pretty sure it says they are guilty and going to hell. Apparently God has a prescriptive and a descriptive will.
I think it's clear that all are redeemable until they are not. Murderers included.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:24 am to Diamondawg
quote:
fall from Grace.
What would this entail?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:25 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
I think it's clear that all are redeemable until they are not. Murderers included.
This is Biblical truth.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:27 am to Pettifogger
quote:
You don't think it's a little bizarre to take this accusatory tone about elitism while writing off centuries of in depth and good-faith reformed debate about original sin, pelagianism, etc. using these tropes?
Is it just coincidence that the rise of Calvinism coincides with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society?
No coincidence at all
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:31 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
the predominant Protestant message has devolved into elitist nonsense that rewards the fortunate
I have never felt this at any Protestant church I chose to attend. I was not involved in any church that focused on predetermination. It is my view this is wrong in application and theory. Just one man's view.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:31 am to RiverCityTider
quote:lol, wut?
Is it just coincidence that the rise of Calvinism coincides with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society?
No coincidence at all
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:36 am to themunch
Someone who was enlightened, had tasted the heavenly gift, was made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, experiences the word of God and the powers of the Aeon to come, and then not.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:40 am to the808bass
Biblically, the only way out of salvation is denouncing your faith. What do you think is a cause for losing one's salvation while still being a believer?
Honest question.
Honest question.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:46 am to RiverCityTider
Your theology needs to be reformed. You don't seem to understand the doctrines as taught in the scripture and promoted by the Reformers.
"Once saved, always saved" is not a poison pill. It's a doctrine from scripture (Phil. 1:6; John 10:28; John 2:19; John 10:27-29, among many others).
Your view is offbase because you don't have a true sense of the sinfulness of man or the holiness or God, or both. This is what makes you think that the doctrines of grace are "elitist". You think man is basically good, or at least basically neutral, and therefore it is immoral or even cruel for God to choose some to eternal life and not others. That's not what the scriptures teach.
The Bible teaches that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. That heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. That those who are not Christ's sheep cannot hear His voice calling. Man is dead in his trespasses and sin, like Lazarus, and must be born again. A dead man cannot respond to the call to repent and believe.
God would be just in condemning every single person to an eternity in hell for our violations of His perfect law, yet He shows mercy. He doesn't show mercy because we deserve it, for if we deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy, but a reward. That He should save anyone at all shows How loving and merciful God is, exactly because we do not deserve it.
We have the freedom to choose according to what our wills desire, but our wills are fallen and will not, and cannot choose that which is ultimately good--Jesus Christ--apart from the work of God in us.
This is a message of hope. It is a message that God is loving and merciful. It is a message that those who trust in Christ can feel secure in their standing before God. It isn't license to sin, for if we truly are regenerated, it will manifest in sanctification over the course of our lives, but it gives hope to those who otherwise do not have it.
"Once saved, always saved" is not a poison pill. It's a doctrine from scripture (Phil. 1:6; John 10:28; John 2:19; John 10:27-29, among many others).
Your view is offbase because you don't have a true sense of the sinfulness of man or the holiness or God, or both. This is what makes you think that the doctrines of grace are "elitist". You think man is basically good, or at least basically neutral, and therefore it is immoral or even cruel for God to choose some to eternal life and not others. That's not what the scriptures teach.
The Bible teaches that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. That heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. That those who are not Christ's sheep cannot hear His voice calling. Man is dead in his trespasses and sin, like Lazarus, and must be born again. A dead man cannot respond to the call to repent and believe.
God would be just in condemning every single person to an eternity in hell for our violations of His perfect law, yet He shows mercy. He doesn't show mercy because we deserve it, for if we deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy, but a reward. That He should save anyone at all shows How loving and merciful God is, exactly because we do not deserve it.
We have the freedom to choose according to what our wills desire, but our wills are fallen and will not, and cannot choose that which is ultimately good--Jesus Christ--apart from the work of God in us.
This is a message of hope. It is a message that God is loving and merciful. It is a message that those who trust in Christ can feel secure in their standing before God. It isn't license to sin, for if we truly are regenerated, it will manifest in sanctification over the course of our lives, but it gives hope to those who otherwise do not have it.
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